There are no component video connectors on the back of a Denon receiver. Nice.

jmarsh wrote on 2021-03-29, 11:45:

No. A cable is just a bunch of wires connecting pins at one end to pins at the other. There aren't "optional" pins that are used […]
Show full quote

darry wrote on 2021-03-29, 01:38:

it is the fact that identical looking USB-C cables (and ports, for that matter, but at least device specs can easily be looked up) can have different functionality (i.e. support or not various alternate modes and power profiles) without any external indication .

No.
A cable is just a bunch of wires connecting pins at one end to pins at the other.
There aren't "optional" pins that are used by some features and not others.
There is a specification that details what speeds the cable must support to be USB-C spec compliant.
Ports can implement different functions, cables cannot; they are passive devices and should all be interchangeable.

With all due respect, in the context of USB-C, all your statements are wrong, except "Ports can implement different functions" .

I suggest that you read :
https://www.androidauthority.com/state-of-usb-c-870996/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB-C#Alternate … _specifications
https://learn.adafruit.com/assets/85324

That will give you an idea of it, but if you end up confused, don't worry you are not alone . 😉

Miphee wrote on 2021-03-29, 12:15:

There are at least 5 different USB-C cables available with different transfer rates. Charging speeds also vary from cable to cab […]
Show full quote

jmarsh wrote on 2021-03-29, 11:45:

No.
A cable is just a bunch of wires connecting pins at one end to pins at the other.
There aren't "optional" pins that are used by some features and not others.

There are at least 5 different USB-C cables available with different transfer rates.
Charging speeds also vary from cable to cable. Instead of coming up with a single protocol we got a bunch of cables with different transfer speeds and charge times.
It really is a mess.

That and, AFAICT, support for specific alt-modes (most often for audo/video) varies too .

darry wrote on 2021-03-29, 18:51:

With all due respect, in the context of USB-C, all your statements are wrong, except "Ports can implement different functions" . […]
Show full quote

With all due respect, in the context of USB-C, all your statements are wrong, except "Ports can implement different functions" .

I suggest that you read :
https://www.androidauthority.com/state-of-usb-c-870996/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB-C#Alternate … _specifications
https://learn.adafruit.com/assets/85324

That will give you an idea of it, but if you end up confused, don't worry you are not alone . 😉

Nope. I had a look at those links and I see where your confusion is coming from; they're discussing feature differences of USB-C to USB-A (USB 3 gen1/gen2) cables, not direct USB-C -> USB-C cables. Which is one of the main reasons for USB-C's existence, the existing hardware specs were a mess because they made some pins optional, some were low speed vs high speed... USB-C's spec clarifies all that, making a cable a standard thing that can be used for any purpose.

I personally have at least 5 direct USB-C cables from different sources (mostly phone and laptop chargers) and have never had a problem using any of them for any purpose, including 60W PD and 4K@60 video. So saying it's a minefield of incompatibilities is just spreading FUD.

Do computers have audio and video out the hdmi output of the video chipset yet?

dnewhous wrote on 2021-03-29, 19:16:

Do computers have audio and video out the hdmi output of the video chipset yet?

For at least the last 10 years.
Unfortunately most monitors still have absolutely terrible headphone output...

I was using that and forgot what I was doing - noticed it recently. There are built in speakers on the monitor.

Settings are now saved in the same eeprom that contains the BIOS/UEFI bootcode.
I still consider this to be a 'bad idea'

jmarsh wrote on 2021-03-29, 19:13:

darry wrote on 2021-03-29, 18:51:

With all due respect, in the context of USB-C, all your statements are wrong, except "Ports can implement different functions" . […]
Show full quote

With all due respect, in the context of USB-C, all your statements are wrong, except "Ports can implement different functions" .

I suggest that you read :
https://www.androidauthority.com/state-of-usb-c-870996/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB-C#Alternate … _specifications
https://learn.adafruit.com/assets/85324

That will give you an idea of it, but if you end up confused, don't worry you are not alone . 😉

Nope. I had a look at those links and I see where your confusion is coming from; they're discussing feature differences of USB-C to USB-A (USB 3 gen1/gen2) cables, not direct USB-C -> USB-C cables. Which is one of the main reasons for USB-C's existence, the existing hardware specs were a mess because they made some pins optional, some were low speed vs high speed... USB-C's spec clarifies all that, making a cable a standard thing that can be used for any purpose.

I personally have at least 5 direct USB-C cables from different sources (mostly phone and laptop chargers) and have never had a problem using any of them for any purpose, including 60W PD and 4K@60 video. So saying it's a minefield of incompatibilities is just spreading FUD.

I am happy things work for you on the USB-C front with your devices . However, a sampling of one is not very statistically significant .

Respectfully, I still believe that you are wrong about there not being different levels of functionality between cables with USB-C connectors on BOTH ends .

See this as an example :

USB 3.1 Type-C to Type-C full-featured cable DisplayPort, Mobile High-Definition Link (MHL), HDMI and Thunderbolt (20 Gbit/s, or […]
Show full quote

USB 3.1 Type-C to Type-C full-featured cable
DisplayPort, Mobile High-Definition Link (MHL), HDMI and Thunderbolt (20 Gbit/s, or 40 Gbit/s with cable length up to 0.5 m) Alternate Mode USB-C ports can be interconnected with standard passive full-featured USB Type-C cables. These cables are only marked with standard "trident" SuperSpeed USB logo (for Gen 1 cables) or the SuperSpeed+ USB 10 Gbit/s logo (for Gen 2 cables) on both ends.[52] Cable length should be 2.0 m or less for Gen 1 and 1.0 m or less for Gen 2.
Thunderbolt Type-C to Type-C active cable
Thunderbolt 3 (40 Gbit/s) Alternate Mode with cables longer than 0.5 m requires active USB-C cables that are certified and electronically marked for high-speed Thunderbolt 3 transmission, similarly to high-power 5 A cables.[37][40] These cables are marked with a Thunderbolt logo on both ends. They do not support USB 3 backwards compatibility, only USB 2 or Thunderbolt. Cables can be marked for both Thunderbolt and 5 A power delivery at the same time.[53]

from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB-C#Alternate … _specifications

and this table also from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB-C#Alternate … _specifications
(left half applies to USB-C to USB-C cables) :

and
https://www.akitio.com/faq/356-are-all-usb-c-cables-the-same

and
https://blog.fosketts.net/2016/10/29/total-ni … -thunderbolt-3/

and finally these two examples of Amazon branded capable USB-C cables and a third one from Cable Matters . All 3 have different different capabilities in terms of speed and/or power delivery . In this case the Amazon ones are distinguishable through a SuperSpeed mark, which is not mandatory, however.

https://www.amazon.ca/AmazonBasics-USB-Type-C … /dp/B01GGKZ3MM/ (USB 2.0 speeds)
https://www.amazon.ca/AmazonBasics-USB-Type-C … e/dp/B01GGKYVSY (USB 3.1 Gen1 )
https://www.amazon.ca/CableCreation-SuperSpee … o/dp/B072M7GH29 ( USB 3.1 Gen2)

That all being said, if you still see me as being wrong, that's fine, I will respectfully agree to disagree with you and I believe we should leave it at that on this subject .

EDIT : corrected typo

When the main computer speakers are connected the flat panel speakers shut off. Any desktop speakers will sound better.

My turntable is a very standard 3 pin IEC but I need to order from Amazon to get a better length.

darry wrote on 2021-03-29, 20:18:

See this as an example :

USB 3.1 Type-C to Type-C full-featured cable DisplayPort, Mobile High-Definition Link (MHL), HDMI and Thunderbolt (20 Gbit/s, or […]
Show full quote

USB 3.1 Type-C to Type-C full-featured cable
DisplayPort, Mobile High-Definition Link (MHL), HDMI and Thunderbolt (20 Gbit/s, or 40 Gbit/s with cable length up to 0.5 m) Alternate Mode USB-C ports can be interconnected with standard passive full-featured USB Type-C cables. These cables are only marked with standard "trident" SuperSpeed USB logo (for Gen 1 cables) or the SuperSpeed+ USB 10 Gbit/s logo (for Gen 2 cables) on both ends.[52] Cable length should be 2.0 m or less for Gen 1 and 1.0 m or less for Gen 2.
Thunderbolt Type-C to Type-C active cable
Thunderbolt 3 (40 Gbit/s) Alternate Mode with cables longer than 0.5 m requires active USB-C cables that are certified and electronically marked for high-speed Thunderbolt 3 transmission, similarly to high-power 5 A cables.[37][40] These cables are marked with a Thunderbolt logo on both ends. They do not support USB 3 backwards compatibility, only USB 2 or Thunderbolt. Cables can be marked for both Thunderbolt and 5 A power delivery at the same time.[53]

from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB-C#Alternate … _specifications

The sentence I highlighted in bold confirms what I have been saying. The paragraph regarding thunderbolt is irrelevant; thunderbolt is not USB, it's basically Apple's typical proprietary garbage designed to assimilate by using the same connectors and pissing people off because it doesn't inter-op correctly with anything outside the Mac ecosphere. Unless you bought a substantial amount of Mac gear around 2013-2015 (before USB-C was even common) you're not likely to have any thunderbolt hardware.

and this table also from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB-C#Alternate … _specifications
(left half applies to USB-C to USB-C cables) :
table.png

Again I don't see the problem here? The table says a USB-C -> USB-C cable supports all features.

and https://www.akitio.com/faq/356-are-all-usb-c-cables-the-same […]
Show full quote

and
https://www.akitio.com/faq/356-are-all-usb-c-cables-the-same

and
https://blog.fosketts.net/2016/10/29/total-ni … -thunderbolt-3/

These are both old articles about Thunderbolt interoperability, which is thankfully is mostly dead by now.

and finally these two examples of Amazon branded capable USB-C cables and a third one from Cable Matters . All 3 have different […]
Show full quote

and finally these two examples of Amazon branded capable USB-C cables and a third one from Cable Matters . All 3 have different different capabilities in terms of speed and/or power delivery . In this case the Amazon ones are distinguishable through a SuperSpeed mark, which is not mandatory, however.

https://www.amazon.ca/AmazonBasics-USB-Type-C … /dp/B01GGKZ3MM/ (USB 2.0 speeds)
https://www.amazon.ca/AmazonBasics-USB-Type-C … e/dp/B01GGKYVSY (USB 3.1 Gen1 )
https://www.amazon.ca/CableCreation-SuperSpee … o/dp/B072M7GH29 ( USB 3.1 Gen2)

There is only one thing you need to know when it comes to cable certification: it's a scam. Just an excuse for manufacturers and retailers to sell identical products for higher prices. This has already been played out with HDMI cables, with the HDMI org even going so far as to announce there is no such thing as a "HDMI 2.0" cable to prevent them being marketed that way.

jmarsh wrote on 2021-03-29, 21:04:

The sentence I highlighted in bold confirms what I have been saying. The paragraph regarding thunderbolt is irrelevant; thunderb […]
Show full quote

darry wrote on 2021-03-29, 20:18:

See this as an example :

USB 3.1 Type-C to Type-C full-featured cable DisplayPort, Mobile High-Definition Link (MHL), HDMI and Thunderbolt (20 Gbit/s, or […]
Show full quote

USB 3.1 Type-C to Type-C full-featured cable
DisplayPort, Mobile High-Definition Link (MHL), HDMI and Thunderbolt (20 Gbit/s, or 40 Gbit/s with cable length up to 0.5 m) Alternate Mode USB-C ports can be interconnected with standard passive full-featured USB Type-C cables. These cables are only marked with standard "trident" SuperSpeed USB logo (for Gen 1 cables) or the SuperSpeed+ USB 10 Gbit/s logo (for Gen 2 cables) on both ends.[52] Cable length should be 2.0 m or less for Gen 1 and 1.0 m or less for Gen 2.
Thunderbolt Type-C to Type-C active cable
Thunderbolt 3 (40 Gbit/s) Alternate Mode with cables longer than 0.5 m requires active USB-C cables that are certified and electronically marked for high-speed Thunderbolt 3 transmission, similarly to high-power 5 A cables.[37][40] These cables are marked with a Thunderbolt logo on both ends. They do not support USB 3 backwards compatibility, only USB 2 or Thunderbolt. Cables can be marked for both Thunderbolt and 5 A power delivery at the same time.[53]

from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB-C#Alternate … _specifications

The sentence I highlighted in bold confirms what I have been saying. The paragraph regarding thunderbolt is irrelevant; thunderbolt is not USB, it's basically Apple's typical proprietary garbage designed to assimilate by using the same connectors and pissing people off because it doesn't inter-op correctly with anything outside the Mac ecosphere. Unless you bought a substantial amount of Mac gear around 2013-2015 (before USB-C was even common) you're not likely to have any thunderbolt hardware.

and this table also from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB-C#Alternate … _specifications
(left half applies to USB-C to USB-C cables) :
table.png

Again I don't see the problem here? The table says a USB-C -> USB-C cable supports all features.

and https://www.akitio.com/faq/356-are-all-usb-c-cables-the-same […]
Show full quote

and
https://www.akitio.com/faq/356-are-all-usb-c-cables-the-same

and
https://blog.fosketts.net/2016/10/29/total-ni … -thunderbolt-3/

These are both old articles about Thunderbolt interoperability, which is thankfully is mostly dead by now.

and finally these two examples of Amazon branded capable USB-C cables and a third one from Cable Matters . All 3 have different […]
Show full quote

and finally these two examples of Amazon branded capable USB-C cables and a third one from Cable Matters . All 3 have different different capabilities in terms of speed and/or power delivery . In this case the Amazon ones are distinguishable through a SuperSpeed mark, which is not mandatory, however.

https://www.amazon.ca/AmazonBasics-USB-Type-C … /dp/B01GGKZ3MM/ (USB 2.0 speeds)
https://www.amazon.ca/AmazonBasics-USB-Type-C … e/dp/B01GGKYVSY (USB 3.1 Gen1 )
https://www.amazon.ca/CableCreation-SuperSpee … o/dp/B072M7GH29 ( USB 3.1 Gen2)

There is only one thing you need to know when it comes to cable certification: it's a scam. Just an excuse for manufacturers and retailers to sell identical products for higher prices. This has already been played out with HDMI cables, with the HDMI org even going so far as to announce there is no such thing as a "HDMI 2.0" cable to prevent them being marketed that way.

My interpretation of all this obviously differs from yours . Though we could keep at this further, in the interest of keeping things civil and not wasting our time, I believe, as mentioned before, that we should agree to disagree .

The most significant reason for me to post this is to encourage anybody else reading to not to trust anyone's (including mine) assertions on this subject implicitly, to diligently consult the linked pages (and other pertinent ones) and their quoted references before forming an opinion or making a purchasing decision .

On my end, I will leave it at this .

Regards,
Darry

jmarsh wrote on 2021-03-29, 21:04:

The paragraph regarding thunderbolt is irrelevant; thunderbolt is not USB, it's basically Apple's typical proprietary garbage designed to assimilate by using the same connectors and pissing people off because it doesn't inter-op correctly with anything outside the Mac ecosphere. Unless you bought a substantial amount of Mac gear around 2013-2015 (before USB-C was even common) you're not likely to have any thunderbolt hardware.

I think you are really stuck in the past where it comes to Thunderbolt. Maybe you should catch up. I agree that Thunderbolt is not USB-C - it is a superset (Thunderbolt can do USB-C, but not the other way around), but the claim that it is limited to old Mac gear is quite wrong.

Here is an example of the mini USB cable I used in the past https://www.amazon.com/iAUDIO-USB-Cable-Black … 9/dp/B003LU85F8

dr_st wrote on 2021-03-29, 21:54:

jmarsh wrote on 2021-03-29, 21:04:

The paragraph regarding thunderbolt is irrelevant; thunderbolt is not USB, it's basically Apple's typical proprietary garbage designed to assimilate by using the same connectors and pissing people off because it doesn't inter-op correctly with anything outside the Mac ecosphere. Unless you bought a substantial amount of Mac gear around 2013-2015 (before USB-C was even common) you're not likely to have any thunderbolt hardware.

I think you are really stuck in the past where it comes to Thunderbolt. Maybe you should catch up. I agree that Thunderbolt is not USB-C - it is a superset (Thunderbolt can do USB-C, but not the other way around), but the claim that it is limited to old Mac gear is quite wrong.

I once had an old ASUS laptop that featured a Thunderbold port. Never used it.
(Or was it FireWire?)

Thunderbold.. That PCIe 1.x slot in cable form. *shudder* 😟

And I was used to be excited when Intel announced optical i/o in the form of Lightpeak.. Then it became Thunderbold and Intel dared to praise it as an "innovation".
What an insult to the intelligence of their customers. Okay, need to calm down. 😴

Jo22 wrote on 2021-03-30, 07:13:

Thunderbold.. That PCIe 1.x slot in cable form. *shudder* 😟

I think recent generations have enough bandwidth to support PCIe 4.0 x1 even, but I'm not certain which spec revision is actually implemented. It can run DisplayPort in parallel, and now I think also USB.

Jo22 wrote on 2021-03-30, 07:13:

And I was used to be excited when Intel announced optical i/o in the form of Lightpeak

Yeah, me too. I think the optical connectivity was just unreliable unless you were limiting it to very short lengths or very expensive cabling. Take a look how much an optical module + cable for 10Gb Ethernet cost, for instance...

Shouldn't video cards come with 2 hdmi. One for the monitor, one for the receiver?

dnewhous wrote on 2021-03-30, 14:18:

Shouldn't video cards come with 2 hdmi. One for the monitor, one for the receiver?

Some midrange and HTPC oriented cards come with 2 or more HDMI outputs. I haven't pulled my HTPC out of the component rack in quite some time, but I'm 95% certain that the GTX 1650 Super in that thing has no fewer than 3 HDMI outputs and a single DisplayPort.

For higher end cards that prioritize DP, just get a $5 passive DP to HDMI dongle.

Even cheap desktop speakers sound good now.