Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:

Ah, thank you.

I just wonder; from which rail do ISA and PCI devices draw their power? For example, dld sound card like SBPro 2.0 and Roland LAPC draw their power from 5V- rail, but how about Yamaha SW60XG? How about Thrustmaster ACM gamecard? Or how about Voodoo5 5500 APG? The Voodoo5 uses PSU disk drive connector, but the manual doesn't mention whether it uses 12V+ or 5V+, so how am I supposed to know? So far, it's been "plug and pray" for me, but it'll be better if I know exactly what I'm doing.

I somewhat was looking for an answer for this question (I was more or less looking for an answer which ISA cards required -5v and/or -12v yes or no and how to quickly ID these) and to me the fastest way was to simply find a pic with the ISA pinout and then compare the actual ISA card to see if these pins on the ISA cards were present or not (no physical -5v on the row of ISA 'pins' on the actual ISA card means it doesn't need -5v).
Don't know how this can be applied to MIDI boards though, except that if they need -5v or so and the actual ISA card doesn't have the pin on the ISA connector and the daughterboard won't work on such cards, then the daughterboard could be needing it and hence why it won't work on that ISA card).

edit:
Found this thread ISA Cards & Devices Requiring -5V
and found the url to this pic again (I downloaded this pic, which is the pic I actually use myself, but didn't bother to save the url to it) http://ferretronix.com/ixr/octagon/ISA_Bus_pins.png

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:

I just wonder; from which rail do ISA and PCI devices draw their power? For example, dld sound card like SBPro 2.0 and Roland LAPC draw their power from 5V- rail, but how about Yamaha SW60XG? How about Thrustmaster ACM gamecard? Or how about Voodoo5 5500 APG? The Voodoo5 uses PSU disk drive connector, but the manual doesn't mention whether it uses 12V+ or 5V+, so how am I supposed to know? So far, it's been "plug and pray" for me, but it'll be better if I know exactly what I'm doing.

Just finding the voltages used is a lot easier than finding the watts a card uses but it's still a bit of work by way of research.

I just wonder; from which rail do ISA and PCI devices draw their power?

The slot pinouts will show you what voltages are made available to the cards.
If you care the BUS specifications give the amp limits and the volts made available.
Those will tell the max and what is made available, not what the card actually uses.

To find how much (watts) you either need to measure it yourself like we were talking about earlier for video cards, or find some article or documentation by someone that has.

Lacking any documentation to find which voltages are used you would need to do some circuit tracing and some looking up chip specifications.
A pin that doesn't go anywhere obviously isn't being used.
A chip powered by 3.3v is getting it from somewhere but you need to determine if it's source is a slot-pin or a VR powered by 5v or 12v.
Same for 5v. Is it coming from a pin or a VR.
It is more complicated when you have a card that can run on more than one voltage. Like PCI cards that can use either 3.3v or 5v.
[Dual power cards will normally have ICs powered by the lower voltage and the ability to switch their source to a VR powered by a higher voltage if the lower voltage isn't present.]
Also do not confuse power voltages with I/O (signaling) voltages.

ISA pinout
PCI and PCI-X pinouts [Note: Pins 63-94 exist only on PCI-X implementations.]
AGP pinout
PCI-Express pinout
.

nforce4max wrote:

... Good luck on the re-cap, maybe put up a quick guide so that people in the future find it.

Thanks. Sure, I've posted it here: Re: A tale of two PSUs

TheMobRules wrote:

This thread prompted me to open an old Antec SmartPower 2.0 I had in storage. Every single Fuhjyyu cap was bulging and leaking. Though this PSU worked well enoguh back when I used it, I would stay away of these things for retro builds. I also had an Antec TruePower 450W and a TruePower Trio 650W, but I gave those away a while ago. I wonder if they suffered the same fate as the SmartPower.

It's funny, I remember back in those days everyone on forums and tech reviews was like "You've got to buy an Antec, they're the best thing around". And then the whole Fuhjyyu fiasco happened. 😵

I had an old Antec SmartPower Sl300S in one of my systems. Because of your comments here, I decided to pull it and check it out. Sure enough, some of the caps were bulging and one was starting to leak. This PSU only had maybe 300 hours on it since I bought it new around 2004-ish. It was barely used over the years. Jeez...

Thanks to your comments, a disaster for my old PC was averted. I swapped in an Antec Basiq BP350 and everything is working fine again. Thanks! 😀

Is there any point to hanging onto the old SmartPower? Should I just cannibalize it for the fan which is still almost-new? Maybe I could re-cap it if I ever learned how to do it? Would it even be any good after a re-cap?

KT7AGuy wrote:

... I swapped in an Antec Basiq BP350 and everything is working fine again ...

^ Reasonably decent PSU for retrocomps, gut pics from the BP350P-EC european version (might differ a bit from the US version):

_____ _____

Teapo and Crapxons inside but at least they're decently sized. For an old half-bridge design this PSU is efficient (~80% max). Should last a while provided good PC case cooling.

KT7AGuy wrote:

... Is there any point to hanging onto the old SmartPower? Should I just cannibalize it for the fan which is still almost-new? Maybe I could re-cap it if I ever learned how to do it? Would it even be any good after a re-cap?

Paradoxically save for the atrocious Fuhjyyu caps they were otherwise decent PSUs, so recapping one wouldn't be a bad idea, specially as a learning experience.

Tetrium wrote:

I somewhat was looking for an answer for this question (I was more or less looking for an answer which ISA cards required -5v an […]
Show full quote

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:

Ah, thank you.

I just wonder; from which rail do ISA and PCI devices draw their power? For example, dld sound card like SBPro 2.0 and Roland LAPC draw their power from 5V- rail, but how about Yamaha SW60XG? How about Thrustmaster ACM gamecard? Or how about Voodoo5 5500 APG? The Voodoo5 uses PSU disk drive connector, but the manual doesn't mention whether it uses 12V+ or 5V+, so how am I supposed to know? So far, it's been "plug and pray" for me, but it'll be better if I know exactly what I'm doing.

I somewhat was looking for an answer for this question (I was more or less looking for an answer which ISA cards required -5v and/or -12v yes or no and how to quickly ID these) and to me the fastest way was to simply find a pic with the ISA pinout and then compare the actual ISA card to see if these pins on the ISA cards were present or not (no physical -5v on the row of ISA 'pins' on the actual ISA card means it doesn't need -5v).
Don't know how this can be applied to MIDI boards though, except that if they need -5v or so and the actual ISA card doesn't have the pin on the ISA connector and the daughterboard won't work on such cards, then the daughterboard could be needing it and hence why it won't work on that ISA card).

edit:
Found this thread ISA Cards & Devices Requiring -5V
and found the url to this pic again (I downloaded this pic, which is the pic I actually use myself, but didn't bother to save the url to it) http://ferretronix.com/ixr/octagon/ISA_Bus_pins.png

Thanks, buddy. Nice info on ISA cards. So none of my cards need 5V-. I'm still concerned about 3.3V+ and 5V+ though. I made a mistake, the Thermaltake specs says its 3.3V+ current is 20A, while its 5V+ current is 17A, while the combined power of 5V+ and 3.3V+ is 120 watt max. So only 120 watt out of 700 watt is allocated to its 3.3V+ and 5V+ rails. I wonder if it would be sufficient for a Pentium III 600-based system (Intel 440BX mobo) crammed with myriads of ISA and PCI cards.

I hope Voodoo5 5500 draws its power from 12V+ instead of 5V+ and 3.3V+.

PCBONEZ wrote:

Just finding the voltages used is a lot easier than finding the watts a card uses but it's still a bit of work by way of researc […]
Show full quote

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:

I just wonder; from which rail do ISA and PCI devices draw their power? For example, dld sound card like SBPro 2.0 and Roland LAPC draw their power from 5V- rail, but how about Yamaha SW60XG? How about Thrustmaster ACM gamecard? Or how about Voodoo5 5500 APG? The Voodoo5 uses PSU disk drive connector, but the manual doesn't mention whether it uses 12V+ or 5V+, so how am I supposed to know? So far, it's been "plug and pray" for me, but it'll be better if I know exactly what I'm doing.

Just finding the voltages used is a lot easier than finding the watts a card uses but it's still a bit of work by way of research.

I just wonder; from which rail do ISA and PCI devices draw their power?

The slot pinouts will show you what voltages are made available to the cards.
If you care the BUS specifications give the amp limits and the volts made available.
Those will tell the max and what is made available, not what the card actually uses.

To find how much (watts) you either need to measure it yourself like we were talking about earlier for video cards, or find some article or documentation by someone that has.

Lacking any documentation to find which voltages are used you would need to do some circuit tracing and some looking up chip specifications.
A pin that doesn't go anywhere obviously isn't being used.
A chip powered by 3.3v is getting it from somewhere but you need to determine if it's source is a slot-pin or a VR powered by 5v or 12v.
Same for 5v. Is it coming from a pin or a VR.
It is more complicated when you have a card that can run on more than one voltage. Like PCI cards that can use either 3.3v or 5v.
[Dual power cards will normally have ICs powered by the lower voltage and the ability to switch their source to a VR powered by a higher voltage if the lower voltage isn't present.]
Also do not confuse power voltages with I/O (signaling) voltages.

ISA pinout
PCI and PCI-X pinouts [Note: Pins 63-94 exist only on PCI-X implementations.]
AGP pinout
PCI-Express pinout
.

Thanks. I'm still trying to find whether Voodoo5 5500 draws its power from 12V+ or 3.3V+. If it's the former, then new PSUs like Corsair and Thermaltake would be great for a retro Voodoo-based system. Alas, I haven't successfully found the information.

Time travel to 1999 Guru3D courtesy of The Wayback Machine 😀 :

"... Installation of the videocard was somewhat strange. Just like any other videocard, insert it into your system and then the […]
Show full quote

"... Installation of the videocard was somewhat strange. Just like any other videocard, insert it into your system and then the strange part. You have to connect a power cable directly from the PC's power supply (such as a HD power cable) towards the Videocard. Why ? Because the the Voodoo5 5500 simply is a power drain 🤣 . Each VSA-100 chip can use up to 15 Watts of energy, resulting in a 30 Watts power usage! 🤣 ..."

http://web.archive.org/web/20010215065028/htt … 500/index6.html

Anandtech, 2000 AD:

"... To ensure that the dual VSA-100 chips get enough power, it draws its power from the +5V power rail of your power supply courtesy of the 4-pin power connector present on the board. The reason for the board’s incredible length is because all the components required to regulate the power supplied to the board must be present, instead of relying on the AGP slot to provide the power and the motherboard to regulate the power supplied. ..."

http://www.anandtech.com/show/580/3

^ Which makes sense because at the time the +12V rail was still embryonic (the opposite of today).

was wondering if anybody knew whether Dell's PSUs were any good circa 2000 (proprietary ATX connections aside).

reason Im asking is that my Precision 220 has a PSU with the model "NPS-330CB C", and yet its rated for 230w.

is it just mislabled? or was Dell being conservative with their wattage specs. I would have thought an SMP workstation like this would have come with a 300+ watt PSU at the time.

However looking at the Voodoo 5500 voltage regulator it looks like it may use juice from both +5V and +12v :

The left path comes from the Molex +12V pin and has a 16V 100uF OS-Con cap.

Could it be that it is powering each VSA chip from a different rail? Kind of what some dual-Athlon motherboards do.

^ I think you may well be right Alexanrs.

Darkman wrote:

was wondering if anybody knew whether Dell's PSUs were any good circa 2000 (proprietary ATX connections aside).

reason Im asking is that my Precision 220 has a PSU with the model "NPS-330CB C", and yet its rated for 230w.

is it just mislabled? or was Dell being conservative with their wattage specs. I would have thought an SMP workstation like this would have come with a 300+ watt PSU at the time.

Model numbers don't necessarily imply wattage. Use the label data.
Dell doesn't make PSUs they OEM them from someone else. Usually quality brands.
NPS is from Newton Power LTD (NPS = Newton Power Supply, I think.).
Newton is one of the brands that gives continuous power rather than peak on the label. If it says 230w it really is 230w.
NPS has been around forever but usually only as OEM. Always been good.
Since 2001 they are fully owned by Delta. Before that partly.
Dell still uses NPS all the way up to 1000w I believe.
.

PCBONEZ wrote:

Model numbers don't necessarily imply wattage. Use the label data. Dell doesn't make PSUs they OEM them from someone else. Usual […]
Show full quote

Darkman wrote:

was wondering if anybody knew whether Dell's PSUs were any good circa 2000 (proprietary ATX connections aside).

reason Im asking is that my Precision 220 has a PSU with the model "NPS-330CB C", and yet its rated for 230w.

is it just mislabled? or was Dell being conservative with their wattage specs. I would have thought an SMP workstation like this would have come with a 300+ watt PSU at the time.

Model numbers don't necessarily imply wattage. Use the label data.
Dell doesn't make PSUs they OEM them from someone else. Usually quality brands.
NPS is from Newton Power LTD (NPS = Newton Power Supply, I think.).
Newton is one of the brands that gives continuous power rather than peak on the label. If it says 230w it really is 230w.
NPS has been around forever but usually only as OEM. Always been good.
Since 2001 they are fully owned by Delta. Before that partly.
Dell still uses NPS all the way up to 1000w I believe.
.

interesting, I thought the PSU was a Delta perhaps.

still , 230w seems a little low for this kind of system, though I guess if the PSU is of a high quality its going to be able to take more of a beating , so to speak.

alexanrs wrote:

Could it be that it is powering each VSA chip from a different rail? Kind of what some dual-Athlon motherboards do.

Q1 and Q4 are fed from the near side of the board. Q2 and Q3 the from the far side.
If Q1 and Q2 were supplied the same voltage it would make more sense for them to be fed from the same side of the PCB.
Same with Q3 and Q4.
It's possible Q1 is fed 5v, Q2 12v, Q3 5v, Q4 12v.
In other words each 1/2 could be on both rails.
- Which would be weird, but it's already weird so........
Would have to trace both sides to really figure it out.
.

Darkman wrote:

PCBONEZ wrote:

Model numbers don't necessarily imply wattage. Use the label data. Dell doesn't make PSUs they OEM them from someone else. Usual […]
Show full quote

Darkman wrote:

was wondering if anybody knew whether Dell's PSUs were any good circa 2000 (proprietary ATX connections aside).

reason Im asking is that my Precision 220 has a PSU with the model "NPS-330CB C", and yet its rated for 230w.

is it just mislabled? or was Dell being conservative with their wattage specs. I would have thought an SMP workstation like this would have come with a 300+ watt PSU at the time.

Model numbers don't necessarily imply wattage. Use the label data.
Dell doesn't make PSUs they OEM them from someone else. Usually quality brands.
NPS is from Newton Power LTD (NPS = Newton Power Supply, I think.).
Newton is one of the brands that gives continuous power rather than peak on the label. If it says 230w it really is 230w.
NPS has been around forever but usually only as OEM. Always been good.
Since 2001 they are fully owned by Delta. Before that partly.
Dell still uses NPS all the way up to 1000w I believe.
.

interesting, I thought the PSU was a Delta perhaps.

still , 230w seems a little low for this kind of system, though I guess if the PSU is of a high quality its going to be able to take more of a beating , so to speak.

The thing about Dell is they often give you the minimum size PSU so if/when you want to upgrade much you need a bigger PSU.
That doesn't reflect on the PSUs quality or brand, it reflects on Dell's practices.
.

yeah , the PSU is pretty hefty , and the machine in general is built like a tank , so complaints there , but I can see the business motives behind the PSU.

I do have the ATX adapter that lets me use any PSU I want, but the way the machine is set up , any PSU where the fan/connector are switched around, or the PSU has an on/off switch , will not fit (the back of the system is covered, with holes cut out for the plug and fan). meaning Im kind of restricted to other Dell PSUs (perhaps one of the server ones, if it fits) or a Delta PSU since those should fit in most cases.

TELVM wrote:

Time travel to 1999 Guru3D courtesy of The Wayback Machine :happy: : […]
Show full quote

Time travel to 1999 Guru3D courtesy of The Wayback Machine 😀 :

"... Installation of the videocard was somewhat strange. Just like any other videocard, insert it into your system and then the […]
Show full quote

"... Installation of the videocard was somewhat strange. Just like any other videocard, insert it into your system and then the strange part. You have to connect a power cable directly from the PC's power supply (such as a HD power cable) towards the Videocard. Why ? Because the the Voodoo5 5500 simply is a power drain 🤣 . Each VSA-100 chip can use up to 15 Watts of energy, resulting in a 30 Watts power usage! 🤣 ..."

http://web.archive.org/web/20010215065028/htt … 500/index6.html

Anandtech, 2000 AD:

"... To ensure that the dual VSA-100 chips get enough power, it draws its power from the +5V power rail of your power supply courtesy of the 4-pin power connector present on the board. The reason for the board’s incredible length is because all the components required to regulate the power supplied to the board must be present, instead of relying on the AGP slot to provide the power and the motherboard to regulate the power supplied. ..."

http://www.anandtech.com/show/580/3

^ Which makes sense because at the time the +12V rail was still embryonic (the opposite of today).

Interesting. I also found something here:
Now it's time for a dreaded moment: the first boot with the Voodoo 5 6000! We were quite stressed because the card could be destroyed at this point and then the only solution would be to exile to Patagonia with our friends the penguins for the rest of our lifes to avoid an horrible death, slain by furious 3dfx fans. First of all let's look at our PSU, this Enermax model has served us for years now and we are very happy with it. It has all the power for a Voodoo 5 6000 on the 12V line (maximum is 12*26 = 213W max). At this point the card would probably burn 😉

(Picture is not mine, I merely host it on my image hosting account to avoid stealing his bandwidth)

So, the Voodoo5 6000 draws its power from 12V+ rails, I hope Voodoo5 5500 would be the same. Anyway, how about Pentium III CPU? Where does it draw its power from? I hope it's 12V+.

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:

Anyway, how about Pentium III CPU? Where does it draw its power from? I hope it's 12V+.

5V

Tetrium wrote:

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:

Anyway, how about Pentium III CPU? Where does it draw its power from? I hope it's 12V+.

5V

Meanwhile, Thermaltake TR2 700 only has 17 Ampere from its 5V+ rail, makes a total power of 85 watt. Pentium III 600, on the other hand, has 35 watt TDP.

I hope Voodoo5 5500 draws most of its power from 12V+.

^ What would be your system specs apart from one PIII 600 and one Voodoo 5 5500?