Nice! I have such a soft spot for the P233mmx and Riva128 builds. Are you going with Windows 95 or Windows 98? I found that the latest Nvidia reference drivers for the Riva 128 had issues under Win95. Specifically it never wanted to allow me to have a PCI heap size large enough to not stutter constantly in simple GLQuake. Older drivers or manufacturer specific drivers had no such issues. I also found that several panels of advanced nv3tweak settings were bugged in Win95 versus Win98. So personally I'd recommend going with the manufacturer drivers if you can find them.

For sound cards, I'm considering a number of setups. Since I have three ISA slots to work with, I intended to use all of them for sound cards.

The primary pairing I'm considering is a Terratec Maestro 32/96 and Sound Blaster 16 (CT2290).

The Terratec has both built-in Roland samples using its primary MIDI port plus a secondary MIDI option for a wavetable add-on card. I'd likely pair that with a Yamaha XG based card. The Sound Blaster 16 would complement it with native SB16 and Yamaha OPL3 support.

For the third ISA slot, I'd probably add in a Gravis UltraSound of some kind or another.

Second pairing I'm considering is a Turtle Beach Tropez Plus and Sound Blaster 32 (CT3670).

The Tropez Plus does have built-in General MIDI support / samples. While it's sample set isn't a good as a proper Roland samples, it's not bad over all. It also features a Yamaha OPL3 for FM playback.

Pairing it with the Sound Blaster 32 gives me native SB16 and AWE32 support, plus the option of using sound fonts.

The last pairing is an Sound Blaster AWE64 Gold with a Gravis UltraSound Extreme.

This is my favorite period correct sound card set up for this era, with proper GUS support, ESS1688 for SB Pro and OPL3 FM compatibility, plus SB16 and AWE32 support via the AWE64. That said, I've used this combination in a number of builds in the past and while I do like it, I'll probably do something different for this build.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-12-01, 17:27:

Video cards will be a Riva 128 (PCI) and a Orchid Righteous 3D. Based on my testing of various 1997 era PCI video cards, the Riva 128 seems to have the best combination of performance and compatibility. Pairing it with a Voodoo 1 card seemed a logical combination.

Personally, I'd ditch the Riva 128 and get either a Matrox Millennium II, ATi Rage Pro or a Virge DX for their proprietary APIs. The Riva is made obsolete by the Voodoo 1 (for the games from that time period) while the custom APIs can be fun to experiment with.

The Virge would also provide slightly better DOS compatibility (if that is of importance) while the Matrox and ATi cards have better image quality than Nvidia cards from that time.

Namrok wrote on 2024-12-01, 17:37:

Nice! I have such a soft spot for the P233mmx and Riva128 builds. Are you going with Windows 95 or Windows 98? I found that the latest Nvidia reference drivers for the Riva 128 had issues under Win95. Specifically it never wanted to allow me to have a PCI heap size large enough to not stutter constantly in simple GLQuake. Older drivers or manufacturer specific drivers had no such issues. I also found that several panels of advanced nv3tweak settings were bugged in Win95 versus Win98. So personally I'd recommend going with the manufacturer drivers if you can find them.

I'll be going with Windows 95 (OSR2) to keep it period correct for 1997.

Since I'm using Compact Flash, I'll have a pair of CF cards: one with DOS 6.22 and the other with Win 95.

That's a good tip about the Riva 128 drivers. I think I have a Diamond Viper V330 driver disk somewhere, so I'll probably try that.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2024-12-01, 17:41:

Personally, I'd ditch the Riva 128 and get either a Matrox Millennium II, ATi Rage Pro or a Virge DX for their proprietary APIs. The Riva is made obsolete by the Voodoo 1 (for the games from that time period) while the custom APIs can be fun to experiment with.

The Virge would also provide slightly better DOS compatibility (if that is of importance) while the Matrox and ATi cards have better image quality than Nvidia cards from that time.

I don't currently have an ATI Rage Pro PCI card to try.

When I was testing various cards in my other Pentium MMX 166 build, the Riva 128 seemed to have the best combination of performance and DOS compatibility among the various cards. This is why I've opted to use it for this build.

If I decide to do an experimental build or play around with other APIs, I'll probably just set up a test bench system for that.

Very cool build plan, Shponglefan! I've seen some of your other builds and know this one will turn out very clean and optimized as well.

The ATI Rage Pro PCI was my choice for my first retro PC, an HP Vectra VL/5 with Pentium MMX 200. I liked the card and found it paired well, but I also didn't have many other cards to test with at the time.

It would be pretty neat if you could get the full 1024kB working, that would be quite a bit of L2. My system only had 256kB on a COASt module - I found a 512kB module but the BIOS still didn't use it! I assume you would need to find the matching PQFP chips, hot air them onto the pads, then see if it auto-detects or needs a BIOS update?

Cosmic wrote on 2024-12-01, 19:20:

Very cool build plan, Shponglefan! I've seen some of your other builds and know this one will turn out very clean and optimized as well.

The ATI Rage Pro PCI was my choice for my first retro PC, an HP Vectra VL/5 with Pentium MMX 200. I liked the card and found it paired well, but I also didn't have many other cards to test with at the time.

Thank you! I appreciate the kind words. 😀

If I ever get my hands on a PCI Rage Pro, I'll have to try it out see how it performs.

It would be pretty neat if you could get the full 1024kB working, that would be quite a bit of L2. My system only had 256kB on a COASt module - I found a 512kB module but the BIOS still didn't use it! I assume you would need to find the matching PQFP chips, hot air them onto the pads, then see if it auto-detects or needs a BIOS update?

It so happens that I have additional cache chips (same make and model). There are also a few caps and resistors that would likely need to be added.

The hardware side is pretty straight forward. It's mainly just whether the BIOS can natively support 1024kB or if a new BIOS version is needed.

I'm hoping to confirm the latter before doing any hardware modifications.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-12-01, 17:27:

It features 512kB of cache, but there are a couple unpopulated spaces for additional cache. Apparently certain configurations of this board came with 1024kB. Not sure if it's worth trying to upgrade this board, but that is something I might experiment with in the future.

The thing is that the chipset will still only cache 64MiB no matter the amount of cache, though off course, more cache is always better IMO

I also considered adding a PowerVR card, but I'm not sure it would be worth it with a Pentium MMX. From everything I've read, those cards are highly processor dependent and anything less than a Pentium II isn't recommended.

I have a Matrox M3D in a P225(3x75)MMX build, mostly I use it for the PowerVR specific screen savers 🤣 I don't remember what CPU I had with one back in the day, but probably a Celeron "450A", which ran pretty good. 😀

Nice. I currently have a Riva 128 in my Pentium MMX 233 system along with a Voodoo 1. To be honest though I have mostly found that the Riva 128 performance is far worse than the Voodoo. So I rarely use it, apart from a few games that explicitly have it as an option. I think the limitation is the CPU, as Glide is more efficient on CPU cycles. So I am considering putting an S3 3D accelerator in instead, for those few games that support it, and if I did that, I would put the Riva 128 in my Pentium II machine with a single Voodoo 2.

Very cool!

I have my own 233mmx system that's a work in progress. No 3d card for it yet and unsure of what to try other than 3dfx stuff since glide seems to have dominated the period of time when games were designed for or could run with the 233mmx CPU. Those are so expensive now though I've held off on pulling the trigger. Also want to maintain compatibility with dos games.

I was pretty certain that none of the intel pentium chipsets supported more than 512kb cache. Are you sure those empty solder pads aren’t for an alternate 512kb configuration using lower density modules?

dukeofurl wrote on 2024-12-02, 22:49:

Those are so expensive now though I've held off on pulling the trigger.

The longer you wait, the more expensive they will be. I wish I didn't wait so long before getting my first Voodoo 2. I convinced myself for ages that my Voodoo 3 was fine.... until I found a game I wanted to play that just didn't like the V3. It worked on the V1, but unplayably slow.

Anonymous Coward wrote on 2024-12-03, 13:39:

I was pretty certain that none of the intel pentium chipsets supported more than 512kb cache. Are you sure those empty solder pads aren’t for an alternate 512kb configuration using lower density modules?

That's a good point. Part of what is confusing is the silk-screening on the motherboard lists 64K x 32, which suggests additional 2 x 256KB cache modules.

I also found a jumper manual on the Retro Web for the MP-586ACT (rev. 1.00) motherboard. In that document, it mentions 256KB or 512KB cache in the initial specs, but later under the cache section it lists the board as having either 512KB or 1MB.

Full document is here (PDF): https://theretroweb.com/motherboard/manual/36 … f8755963239.pdf

H3nrik V! wrote on 2024-12-02, 09:08:

I have a Matrox M3D in a P225(3x75)MMX build, mostly I use it for the PowerVR specific screen savers 🤣 I don't remember what CPU I had with one back in the day, but probably a Celeron "450A", which ran pretty good. 😀

The latter probably would be a good processor to pair a M3D with.

I'm thinking of including one in my planned Pentium II 300 build. Or maybe throw it in something faster.

I've even seen suggestions to pair PowerVR cards with Pentium 4 processors. 😅

RetroPCCupboard wrote on 2024-12-02, 20:17:

Nice. I currently have a Riva 128 in my Pentium MMX 233 system along with a Voodoo 1. To be honest though I have mostly found that the Riva 128 performance is far worse than the Voodoo. So I rarely use it, apart from a few games that explicitly have it as an option. I think the limitation is the CPU, as Glide is more efficient on CPU cycles. So I am considering putting an S3 3D accelerator in instead, for those few games that support it, and if I did that, I would put the Riva 128 in my Pentium II machine with a single Voodoo 2.

I'm mainly intending the Riva 128 for its 2D performance and DOS compatibility, not so much 3D. The Voodoo is ideal in my experience for early Glide / 3D games, and more powerful cards can be used in later systems for more demanding 3D titles.

dukeofurl wrote on 2024-12-02, 22:49:

Very cool!

I have my own 233mmx system that's a work in progress. No 3d card for it yet and unsure of what to try other than 3dfx stuff since glide seems to have dominated the period of time when games were designed for or could run with the 233mmx CPU. Those are so expensive now though I've held off on pulling the trigger. Also want to maintain compatibility with dos games.

Thank you!

While there were a number of 3D APIs and graphic cards in that era, 3Dfx Voodoo really was the go-to of that era. It definitely dominated for a reason!

I was looking at the pin header connections on the board, and there appear to be a couple possibly related to turbo functionality: TB and TD.

If I bridge the "TD" header, it causes 5V to trigger on the TB header. Presumably this would be to activate the Turbo LED.

However, it doesn't appear to have any effect on performance.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-12-03, 23:52:

The latter probably would be a good processor to pair a M3D with. […]
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H3nrik V! wrote on 2024-12-02, 09:08:

I have a Matrox M3D in a P225(3x75)MMX build, mostly I use it for the PowerVR specific screen savers 🤣 I don't remember what CPU I had with one back in the day, but probably a Celeron "450A", which ran pretty good. 😀

The latter probably would be a good processor to pair a M3D with.

I'm thinking of including one in my planned Pentium II 300 build. Or maybe throw it in something faster.

I've even seen suggestions to pair PowerVR cards with Pentium 4 processors. 😅

Wonder if the PowerVR can be paired with a too powerful CPU? I recall reading about that e.g. Voodoo1 will run unbelievable warm if paired with something too fast?

You know, I'll be deeply curious how the Riva 128 compares to a Voodoo 1 in this system. What cursory research I did, and my own remembrance at the time, was that the Riva stomped the Voodoo in everything but glide exclusive games. Dosdays claims that the Riva128 had fully double the raw triangles/second and pixels/second. This benchmark in a K6-2 400 shows the Riva 128 getting 22.9 fps versus the Voodoo's 17.4 fps in Quake 2's first timedemo. 38.5 fps versus 23.3 fps in Quake's first timedemo.

Funnily enough, I found an old Toms Hardware article about how these graphics card scale with CPU, but when it was published the Riva 128's OpenGL drivers were not released yet, so it's scores for Quake and Quake 2 are terrible compared to the voodoo. I did find this Anandtech page that shows the Riva128 pretty decisively stomping a Voodoo, but the slowest CPU they try it with is a Pentium II 266.

With a P233, the driver overhead might matter, but I wonder if it will matter so much that the Voodoo is worth running if the Riva128 can do the job. Might also matter a lot which version of the drivers you use. I already mentioned to steer clear of the last Nvidia reference drivers, but performance could be another reason to just go with the last manufacturer drivers.