So, would the Roland SC55 be a better option instead of the MT-32? Or does that have its share of issues as well?

DustyShinigami wrote on 2024-10-31, 17:23:

So, would the Roland SC55 be a better option instead of the MT-32? Or does that have its share of issues as well?

A Roland SC-55 is designed to be used with MIDI tracks composed to the General MIDI standard. Whereas the MT-32 predates General MIDI and consequently doesn't support the General MIDI instrument mapping.

If a game supports General MIDI, then you'd want a device that supports General MIDI, like a Roland SC-55.

The Roland SC-55 (and variants) were also commonly used to compose General MIDI soundtracks, so General MIDI supported games are generally considered to sound 'correct' with an authentic Roland device.

When comparing the MT-32 and SC-55, it's not a case of one being better than the other. It's a case of what the soundtracks were originally written for and which one would play them back properly.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-10-31, 17:28:

A Roland SC-55 is designed to be used with MIDI tracks composed to the General MIDI standard. Whereas the MT-32 predates General […]
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A Roland SC-55 is designed to be used with MIDI tracks composed to the General MIDI standard. Whereas the MT-32 predates General MIDI and consequently doesn't support the General MIDI instrument mapping.

If a game supports General MIDI, then you'd want a device that supports General MIDI, like a Roland SC-55.

The Roland SC-55 (and variants) were also commonly used to compose General MIDI soundtracks, so General MIDI supported games are generally considered to sound 'correct' with an authentic Roland device.

When comparing the MT-32 and SC-55, it's not a case of one being better than the other. It's a case of what the soundtracks were originally written for and which one would play them back properly.

Okay. Though considering I prefer General MIDI, and a number of the games I'll be playing support it, wouldn't a Roland SC-55 make more sense for me to invest in?

DustyShinigami wrote on 2024-10-31, 17:39:

Okay. Though considering I prefer General MIDI, and a number of the games I'll be playing support it, wouldn't a Roland SC-55 make more sense for me to invest in?

Yes, if the games you are playing support General MIDI then a Roland SC-55 would make sense.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-10-31, 17:49:

Yes, if the games you are playing support General MIDI then a Roland SC-55 would make sense.

Cool. Might do that at some point then rather than go for an MT-32. I did check out a Roland SCC1 sound card, but those are crazy expensive.

EDIT: Also, just learnt that Bobby Prince used one for the creation of the Doom soundtrack. 😀

DustyShinigami wrote on 2024-10-31, 17:52:

Cool. Might do that at some point then rather than go for an MT-32. I did check out a Roland SCC1 sound card, but those are crazy expensive.

Yeah, the SCC1's do command a premium. In part, that might be because they also function as an MPU-401 interface with intelligent mode. They're great for connecting devices like MT-32 or CM-series modules, in addition to their built-in General MIDI instrument set.

I learnt about something called a PC MIDI Card. Would I need one of those, too? Or is that not something to worry about?

DustyShinigami wrote on 2024-10-31, 18:13:

I learnt about something called a PC MIDI Card. Would I need one of those, too? Or is that not something to worry about?

The PCMIDI card is an ISA card that functions as an MPU-401 w/ intelligent mode MIDI interface card. It's mainly useful for connecting devices that need intelligent mode like MT-32 modules.

It's not something you should need, especially since the system you have only has one ISA slot and I see above you mentioned you've already ordered an AWE64 card.

DustyShinigami wrote on 2024-10-31, 14:25:

[...]

Oh, of course. The motherboard. Yeah, it's this one - https://theretroweb.com/motherboards/s/msi-ms-6156-bx11 - so that means it has the Creative ES1373 (AudioPCI), or otherwise known as the Ensoniq ES1373.

But don't worry, I didn't go for a SB16. I went for an AWE64. 😀

Then you did go for an SB16, the AWE64 cards (again, multiple quite different cards... be specific) are late SB16 cards with an EMU8k bolted on.

They generally don't have hanging note bugs, but they are susceptible to MIDI slowdowns when playing MIDI and high quality digital audio, and they all have the unpopular CQM implementation of FM synth. Given that the ES1373 can give you SB16, there's no reason to duplicate that on the ISA card, and given it doesn't have a real OPL3 for FM synth, all the more reason to go for a card with bug-free MIDI and real (or 1:1 clone) OPL3. All the AWE64 gives you that a card like that wouldn't is the EMU8k, which is a decent wavetable souce, but if you're considering an SC-55 the EMU8k doesn't hold a candle to it. Better to go with a card that complements it better (no MIDI slowdowns!) and gives you the OPL3 you're lacking with this AWE64.

dionb wrote on 2024-10-31, 19:22:

Better to go with a card that complements it better (no MIDI slowdowns!) and gives you the OPL3 you're lacking with this AWE64.

OPL / FM synthesis in general is only really needed for 80s and early 90s stuff. Since they mentioned they're mostly interested in games from the General MIDI era, FM synthesis is really not that important.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-10-31, 19:25:

OPL / FM synthesis in general is only really needed for 80s and early 90s stuff. Since they mentioned they're mostly interested in games from General MIDI era, FM synthesis is really not that important.

While I generally agree, there are some exceptions. Some games were actually composed on OPL2/3 hardware, and will of course sound best on sound cards which have that. Tyrian is one such example, and it was released in 1995.

There's also the nostalgia factor, meaning if you experienced a game using a sound card with OPL3 in your youth, it might sound more fitting to you that way compared to using General MIDI. That's subjective of course.

dionb wrote on 2024-10-31, 19:22:

Then you did go for an SB16, the AWE64 cards (again, multiple quite different cards... be specific) are late SB16 cards with an EMU8k bolted on.

They generally don't have hanging note bugs, but they are susceptible to MIDI slowdowns when playing MIDI and high quality digital audio, and they all have the unpopular CQM implementation of FM synth. Given that the ES1373 can give you SB16, there's no reason to duplicate that on the ISA card, and given it doesn't have a real OPL3 for FM synth, all the more reason to go for a card with bug-free MIDI and real (or 1:1 clone) OPL3. All the AWE64 gives you that a card like that wouldn't is the EMU8k, which is a decent wavetable souce, but if you're considering an SC-55 the EMU8k doesn't hold a candle to it. Better to go with a card that complements it better (no MIDI slowdowns!) and gives you the OPL3 you're lacking with this AWE64.

I just meant the regular SB16. The later AWE cards only seem to be problematic with slowdowns, like in Duke Nukem 3D.

Apart from that, I'm still really not sure what card I should go for. Looks like that's the first purchase I've made towards this setup that's wrong. :\

EDIT: I've tried putting a request in to cancel the order, but it could be too late.

DustyShinigami wrote on 2024-10-31, 19:40:

Apart from that, I'm still really not sure what card I should go for. Looks like that's the first purchase I've made towards this setup that's wrong. :\

I wouldn't get too hung up on making the "right" or "wrong" purchase at this point. An AWE64 is a pretty solid card all around and you could have done a lot worse.

IMHO, a big part of figuring out what to use is best found out via direct experience. Sometimes you have to try different things and you'll naturally figure out what you like and what you don't like.

For example, if I listened to some of the opinions about Pentium 4's, I might never have built my all-in-one Pentium 4 build. But I'm glad I did so because it's probably my favorite retro PC build. It turns out a lot of folks' opinions were wrong. 😉

Worst case scenario, you resell the card and get something else. That's part of the retro PC experience.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-10-31, 19:57:

I wouldn't get too hung up on making the "right" or "wrong" purchase at this point. An AWE64 is a pretty solid card all around a […]
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I wouldn't get too hung up on making the "right" or "wrong" purchase at this point. An AWE64 is a pretty solid card all around and you could have done a lot worse.

IMHO, a big part of figuring out what to use is best found out via direct experience. Sometimes you have to try different things and you'll naturally figure out what you like and what you don't like.

For example, if I listened to some of the opinions about Pentium 4's, I might never have built my all-in-one Pentium 4 build. But I'm glad I did so because it's probably my favorite retro PC build. It turns out a lot of folks' opinions were wrong. 😉

Worst case scenario, you resell the card and get something else. That's part of the retro PC experience.

Yeah, true. Thanks. 😀 I just wanted to do as much research as possible to avoid getting the wrong things. I've done that far too often. My family are notorious for it too, heh.

I still need to figure out what MPU-401/MIDI based sound card to get anyway.

DustyShinigami wrote on 2024-10-31, 20:16:

Yeah, true. Thanks. 😀 I just wanted to do as much research as possible to avoid getting the wrong things. I've done that far too often. My family are notorious for it too, heh.

I still need to figure out what MPU-401/MIDI based sound card to get anyway.

Whatever soundcard is in the ISA slot will likely end up being the MPU401 card. I still recommend checking out the Pico GUS. It has error free MIDI playback, and uses a dongle that terminates to a standard MIDI DIN so you don't need a game port to MIDI cable to connect synths. It also has wavetable header so you can use an internal module.

I've come across the Yamaha Audician 32 Plus YMF718-S. Any thoughts on this?

DustyShinigami wrote on 2024-10-31, 22:09:

I've come across the Yamaha Audician 32 Plus YMF718-S. Any thoughts on this?

I'd recommended that card previously (Re: Advice on retro gaming Windows 98 build).

It can support Adlib, Sound Blaster and Sound Blaster Pro, but not Sound Blaster 16. But it does have genuine OPL3 for FM synthesis and a bug-free MPU-401 MIDI interface.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-10-31, 22:28:

I'd recommended that card previously (Re: Advice on retro gaming Windows 98 build).

It can support Adlib, Sound Blaster and Sound Blaster Pro, but not Sound Blaster 16. But it does have genuine OPL3 for FM synthesis and a bug-free MPU-401 MIDI interface.

Wish I could react/like posts on here. ^^ Sorry, I totally missed/forgot about that suggestion. Sounds ideal. I'll see if I can find one.

EDIT: I've just seen the YMF 715e-S? Other chips listed are 72x

DustyShinigami wrote on 2024-10-31, 22:31:

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-10-31, 22:28:

I'd recommended that card previously (Re: Advice on retro gaming Windows 98 build).

It can support Adlib, Sound Blaster and Sound Blaster Pro, but not Sound Blaster 16. But it does have genuine OPL3 for FM synthesis and a bug-free MPU-401 MIDI interface.

Wish I could react/like posts on here. ^^ Sorry, I totally missed/forgot about that suggestion. Sounds ideal. I'll see if I can find one.

No worries, I know a lot of people have been posting, so keeping track of everything can't be easy. 😀

And not to complicate things further, but I'd also consider some of the earlier suggestions to look at PCI sound cards to cover some audio bases.

Case in point, I had an Athlon XP 2000+ Win 98 build with no ISA slots. Instead, I used a Diamond Monster Sound MX300 (based on the Aureal Vortex2 chip). It had Sound Blaster emulation and native MPU-401 support with an internal wave table. I was able to play DOS games with Sound Blaster and General MIDI playback without issue, including games like Doom, Duke 3D, etc. And being a Windows 9x supported sound card, it also provided sound for Windows games and A3D 2.0 support for games with 3D sound.

When it comes to DOS gaming on a Windows 98 machine, you can take advantage of both PCI and ISA options.

thing is, nobody knows what exactly is good enough for you. AWE64 has the CQM clone that's derided in these circles instead of the real OPL3, but if you didn't grow up having a card with a real OPL3 it may just still be good enough, and especially if you don't even intend to play many games that only support FM (OPL3) music. so that's a lot of ifs already that you should probably try to answer for yourself.

in general, the AWE64 is a good card and the CQM can be improved by applying chorus/reverb to it (but maybe only in real mode DOS, though, not entirely sure). to be clear, it has MPU-401 support so you can use an SC-55 with it, it is also bug free in regards to the old hanging note bug on SB16s. duke3d is an issue as you have found out, when using the MPU-401 MIDI out for an SC-55 or such, but the problem can be avoided by either dropping the sfx mixing rate down or using seperate cards for sfx and MPU-401 duties. i've not come across this issue other than in build games, because most won't even offer those high mixing rates in the first place.