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What is the best Thin Client for Windows 98 (SE)

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Reply 80 of 95, by supercordo

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Hello, I have the Fujitsu Furto S400. It runs xp very good and with a GeForce 6200 installed it plays Unreal tournament 2004 very well.

Reply 82 of 95, by aazard

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mattw wrote on 2023-05-08, 20:08:
yes, but still you cannot use many PCI sound cards for DOS with T56N, because the chipset has no DDMA, probably only something l […]
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Biomecanoid wrote on 2023-05-08, 19:58:

Well if its indeed one of the fastest thin clients with PCI support that makes all the difference. It seems to have DOS support with SBx00 Azalia (Intel HDA) but even if it doesn't we can install a sound card.

yes, but still you cannot use many PCI sound cards for DOS with T56N, because the chipset has no DDMA, probably only something like ESS, that has TDMA, will work.

Biomecanoid wrote on 2023-05-08, 19:58:

If we re lucky and sound works without any mods then we can install a PCI GPU for even more performance

unfortunately, I think no T56N BIOS allows to disable the build-in graphics card. so, I doubt, PCI GPU will work.

HP T610 - disable igpu, and its allocated ram:
FROM: https://www.parkytowers.me.uk/thin/hp/t610/firmware.shtml

Advanced -> Device Options -> Integrated Graphics […]
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Advanced -> Device Options -> Integrated Graphics

Use the left or right arrow key to switch Integrated Graphics between Auto or Force.

According to a HP manual all Auto does is set the buffer size to 256MB if you have 4GB of RAM fitted, and to 128MB if you have 2GB of RAM fitted.

Force adds a new parameter that lets you explicitly set the UMA Frame buffer size. This can be set to one of 32M/64M/128M/256M/512M/1G.

The manual does go on to explain:

If you set this to 512MB on a system with 2GB of RAM, the system always allocates 512MB for graphics and the other 1.5GB for use by the BIOS and operating system.
I wondered what happens if we set it explicitly to 256MB rather than letting it happen under Auto?

Memory: 2831272K/2869640K available....
OK, we've inexplicably gained a bit more memory. Why? All the Auto setting does is look at the amount of installed RAM, sees 4GB, and sets the Video buffer to 256MB. Just a trivial bit of initialisation code that should be thrown away as the system boots.

We are still well short of ~3.5GB that we would expect. Checking the PCI memory range again:

lspci -v | grep Memory
Memory at c0000000 (32-bit, prefetchable) [=256M]
Memory at feb00000 (32-bit, non-prefetchable) [=256K]
Memory at feb44000 (32-bit, non-prefetchable) [=16K]
Memory at feb4a000 (32-bit, non-prefetchable) [=1K]
Memory at feb49000 (32-bit, non-prefetchable) [=4K]
Memory at feb48000 (32-bit, non-prefetchable) [=256]
Memory at feb40000 (64-bit, non-prefetchable) [=16K]
Memory behind bridge: None
Memory behind bridge: None
Memory behind bridge: fea00000-feafffff [=1M]
Memory behind bridge: fe900000-fe9fffff [=1M]
Memory at d0010000 (64-bit, prefetchable) [=64K]
Memory at d0000000 (64-bit, prefetchable) [=64K]
Memory at fe900000 (64-bit, non-prefetchable) [=64K]
Memory at fe910000 (64-bit, non-prefetchable) [=8K]
shows no change there. What's the BIOS upto taking such a large chunk of memory? Let's try a much smaller buffer of 64MB.

Memory: 3546512K/3590536K available ....
That's more like it.

I updated the BIOS to 1.20 and that made no difference. Where the memory is going I have no idea.

I did a further quick check on a system with 4GB of installed memory and set the buffer to 128MB. To summarise what I found:

Buffer size Free memory
Auto (256MB) 2607496K
256MB 2869640K
128MB 3525000K
64MB 3590536K
which shows that, if you need to maximise the system memory, you need to set the UMA Frame Buffer size to 128MB or less. Anything larger and a large chunk of your memory vanishes. As you can see from the figures above:

Moving from 64MB to 128MB you lose another 64MB of RAM. (Makes sense)
Moving from 128MB to 256MB you lose another 650MB of RAM (Makes no sense)
Anyone have an explanation for this?

Aazard -
Mono Planar Mortal & Unascended Master
Retro Enthusiast & L3 Trouble Shooter
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Reply 83 of 95, by aazard

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bmwsvsu wrote on 2023-03-15, 01:38:
The Wyse Rx0 (expandable version) makes for a competent Windows 98/XP hybrid build. 3dMark01 score was just over 10,000 and 3d […]
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The Wyse Rx0 (expandable version) makes for a competent Windows 98/XP hybrid build. 3dMark01 score was just over 10,000 and 3dMark03 at just over 3,000.

s-l1600.jpg

I installed a Radeon x600 Pro PCIe card and a few pi fans for some extra airflow, powering them off the unused USB header.

s-l1600.png

For audio, I went with the Berrhinger UCA200 USB audio adapter

1520736047.png

Here is the device manager after all was set up under Windows 98

s-l1600.jpg

I was reviewing this thread more deeply, and noticed something "useful" I could mention:

Behringer UFO202 (UCA202 with phono preamp), has a "clone/look-a-like" (minus the fixed usb "rat tail", it uses USB B) > Thomann "Fun Generation UA-202", it also has S/PDIF out
https://www.thomannmusic.com/fun_generation_ua_202.htm
"Should" be driverless in Windows 98SE (I'm going to buy/test), Hyper cheap, sub-$20 USD ($17.70)
Device is made in China (but looks good at price point)

Note: UA-202 has no physical volume "roller"
12488622_800.jpg
12488597_800.jpg

Last edited by aazard on 2024-09-18, 02:26. Edited 1 time in total.

Aazard -
Mono Planar Mortal & Unascended Master
Retro Enthusiast & L3 Trouble Shooter
.... Getting old

Reply 84 of 95, by BitWrangler

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Slowly, erstwhile expensive parts have been accumulating such that I might make quite a nice machine out of an oldschool thin client...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-Opener
Had one for years, didn't feel very pressing, as I only had like 333Mhz low voltage CPU, 2GB slim 2.5" IDE etc around to consider using on it, which made it a bit of a "more of the same" when I had laptops around that performance level.
However, what has accumulated since is spare K6-2plus 570 moddable to K6-3 and 600mhz, 16GB industrial Compact flash. Extra USB floppies and optical that could be dedicated to it, nice compact USB hubs to build in. So slow agglomeration of enough parts to make it a bit of a flyer, YMF715 sound, maybe do early-mid 98 stuff on it that gives the CyberBlade a bit of a workout in period res. Just hope I can dig up enough detail on the split voltage board mods.

Unicorn herding operations are proceeding, but all the totes of hens teeth and barrels of rocking horse poop give them plenty of hiding spots.

Reply 85 of 95, by aazard

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IMHO the 1.5ghz variant of the Wyse Rx0 ("R90L") series looks like a "retro all-rounder" sweet spot (for a pre-build/thin client), with some fiddling/caveat's
DOS/Win98SE/XP, Should still be able to install use into Win10/11 "fine".

Quick Points on the 1.5ghz Wyse Rx0 series:
CPU:
- Sempron 210U (ultrathin series), 1.5ghz, HyperTransport 800mhz & 64bit (and dual core)
RAM:
- 1x 4gb PC6400U (max?)
Sound:
- Windows 9x "bad" > use of usb audio device that supports 98se (cheapo to behringer 200 series) corrects issue
- DOS: SBEMU "good" = Audio device: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] SBx00 Azalia (Intel HDA) (rev 40)
GPU:
- DOS iGPU is fine, Windows 98SE iGPU has no drivers, but unit supports PCI-E 4x (and and 4x to 16x adaptor you prefer), use of GPU corrects issue
- iGPU can be disabled in bios & PCI-e x4 is more than enough bandwidth, for even an X850XT, Rx0's 65w power supply should handle 45w'ish draw to GPU (unit under full load draws 22w, with igpu)
- X700 series doesnt need a power connector, its power draw is rated at 44 W maximum (& is over kill for era/98se compatible games) Should be perfect!
Hard Disk:
- Has 44-pin IDE connector (supporting 2x devices) & 1x bootable "IDE" SATA, connecting a "128GB PATA/IDE 44PIN 2.5"" SSD should be simple and require no additional power connector
Ports:
- 10/100/1000 Network, Parallel (odd header on board), serial & USB 2.0 ports
BIOS:
- Last BIOS is archived for Flashrom BIOS flashing
- Friendly to GPU's & Headless
- Decent boot options (Network, USB floppy, usb cd, usb hdd/flash drive, IDE 1 & IDE 4 [SATA])
- ***WIP: I will connect a 2nd drive (laptop cd-rom) to the 44pin ide and report if it is seen/bootable

/
Spoiling long details of "powering drives/Connecting Parallel port"
/
Click arrow below to show:

Connecting a full sized SATA drive (+12v needed):

Headers CN13 & CN15 are JST 4pin (1.25mm pitch), they can be wired up to a standard SATA 15pin power, with 12v for desktop drive support:

MicroJST -> Sata (meaning "left" side represents colors of JST cable)

Red -> +5V
Black -> +12V
Yellow -> -5V
White -> -12V

**The 3v is not used
- The 3.5/Desktop Drive (needing +12v) should full power up just fine.

/

SATADOM power:

Wire 2 pins from the shell of a "Floppy power connector" to:
- Wire +5v to 2nd JST 4pin "RED" (+5v) of the header on motherboard
- THEN, Wire GND "Black" to the ground pin of the nearby unused USB header.
- The SATADOM should full power up just fine (Port is rated SATA2).
- Only a single SATA port is "active"/working = the one at, CN18

PS: note the use of 2nd JST's +5v and USB header's ground, still allows USB header to be used, if done "cleanly/neatly" (as I have never had issues sharing a single ground point between two circuits)

/

Parallel Port Header: ***WIP

Its the "odd" 30 pin header between heatsink and cmos battery
- not all 30pins used, "lower" (if heatsink end is top) 4pins appear to not be populated
- ***I will try to report the pinout to "DIY" a connector
can-you-id-this-30pin-parallel-port-connector-on-a-wyse-v0-6j2yd4izn7pd1.png?width=322&format=png&auto=webp&s=0bade8e4bd50e60181672829d174885c51b8d9e6
can-you-id-this-30pin-parallel-port-connector-on-a-wyse-v0-c9teesjdq7pd1.png?width=381&format=png&auto=webp&s=250500823acd9ac93f48226318b067ae8810a578

Aazard -
Mono Planar Mortal & Unascended Master
Retro Enthusiast & L3 Trouble Shooter
.... Getting old

Reply 86 of 95, by RazorX

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hey guys, i'm looking to get a good thin client for dos and windows 98 gaming, i looked around for a HP T5710 but i can't find any for sale but i could buy either a T5700 or a T5720, which is recommended?
i know there is an unlocked bios for the T5720 which helps but is that the better option for dos and windows 98 games over the T5700 or is there now a different thin client you'd recommend?
thanks.

Reply 87 of 95, by ElectroSoldier

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I guess if you are looking for a Thin Client for Win98 gaming then youre not looking to play the newest games on it. If you are then you need to look at something other than a Thin Client.
I have the T5720 with the mod shown off by Philscomputerlab. I use an FX6200 in Win98 and a Creative Sound Blaster CT4780, again Philscomputerlab has the drivers for that.

Great little machine, i forget its on most of the time.

Reply 88 of 95, by RazorX

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ElectroSoldier wrote on 2024-10-13, 13:27:

I guess if you are looking for a Thin Client for Win98 gaming then youre not looking to play the newest games on it. If you are then you need to look at something other than a Thin Client.
I have the T5720 with the mod shown off by Philscomputerlab. I use an FX6200 in Win98 and a Creative Sound Blaster CT4780, again Philscomputerlab has the drivers for that.

Great little machine, i forget its on most of the time.

i don't have much room so i just want something small, so i like the idea of a thin client and use it like a mini retro pc, i have some experience with them too as i have a couple of wyse ones, i think one of them is the Z90D7

Reply 89 of 95, by luk1999

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I'd go for HP T5720 or even better Fujitsu Futro S400, if you can find it somewhere. It's very similar to T5720, but it has two advantages: built in CF slot and PCI slot with enough room to install one of these blue chinese FX5500 or some PCI sound card.

P4 3.0C, P4C800-E Deluxe, 1 GB RAM, X800PRO 128 MB AGP, SB Audigy, Chieftec 400 W, XP SP2
XP2000+, KT2 Combo, 512 MB RAM, GF3Ti200 64 MB AGP, FM801, FSP 400 W, 98SE
C500, Garry, 128 MB RAM, Voodoo 2 12 MB, TNT2 PRO 32 MB, ALS100 Plus+, Compaq 200 W, 98SE

Reply 90 of 95, by pplupo

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jarp wrote on 2024-03-28, 19:40:

For the record, this unlocked 1.13 bios for HP T5720 also allowed to enable UDMA for HDD, which doubled transfer speeds under Win 98 from 16 MB/s to 33 MB/s (using CF card and Sandisk Extreme Pro card).

I don't have the T5720 but the T5710. I was wondering if there would be a custom BIOS for it too. Can you please share where you found the 1.13 BIOS for your T5720?

Reply 91 of 95, by ElectroSoldier

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The 15mb/s on the T5720 is about the only down side to it. Great machine otherwise.

Reply 92 of 95, by jorgembarros

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Hello everyone.
I have been following the experiments with Thin Clients reported here to run old versions of Windows + DOS. Last year I bought my first Thin Client on Ebay, a seller from Germany, the Fujitsu Siemens Futro S220. I liked it a lot and was able to install old versions of DOS and Windows. I bought several CompactFlash-SD adapters on Aliexpress and tested several sizes of memory cards in FAT32, up to 256GB... What happened this year in August is that I miraculously found and bought the HP Compaq T5710 from a seller on OLX in Brazil!!! I bought it with the power supply and a 2GB DOM with Windows ME installed. I bought some IDE44-SD and IDE44-mSATA adapters. I tested on the T5710, 64, 128 & 256GB SSDs (FAT32) and I'm waiting to receive a 512GB one from Aliexpress to test too... I have an old PC (Asus P4-3.0GHz, running Win98SE) where I format and partition the SSDs because it's more practical and on it I have the native 3.1/2" floppy disk + CD/DVD reader driver, and so I can more agilely handle and install the old systems... I'll share some pictures of my collection later. I caught the "Thin Client Fever" after reading the articles on "www.parkytowers.me.uk/thin" and here too... Today I have in my collection some different models... Futro S220, HP T5710, T5730 Plus, T5740, T510, T610, T610 Plus, T620 Plus and T730. (I used Google translate from BR to English.)

Reply 93 of 95, by fdsman

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bmwsvsu wrote on 2023-03-15, 01:38:
The Wyse Rx0 (expandable version) makes for a competent Windows 98/XP hybrid build. 3dMark01 score was just over 10,000 and 3d […]
Show full quote

The Wyse Rx0 (expandable version) makes for a competent Windows 98/XP hybrid build. 3dMark01 score was just over 10,000 and 3dMark03 at just over 3,000.

s-l1600.jpg

I installed a Radeon x600 Pro PCIe card and a few pi fans for some extra airflow, powering them off the unused USB header.

s-l1600.png

For audio, I went with the Berrhinger UCA200 USB audio adapter

1520736047.png

Here is the device manager after all was set up under Windows 98

s-l1600.jpg

I don't know if i should respond here, PM you, or start my own thread but do you still own that unit?

If so, would you possibly be able to help me out and document the pinout for the cable that connects the printer port on the case to the header on the motherboard so I can try and make a cable for mine?

I have a less expansion friendly version (model R00LX), but the only difference seems to be a thinner case with no place to mount an expansion card and no printer port on it.

Going to DIY either a full replacement enclosure or a docking station style setup so I can expand mine and not have it look like an eyesore, would be a massive help if you're able to provide the pinout.

Thanks in advance!

Reply 94 of 95, by bmwsvsu

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fdsman wrote on 2024-12-07, 06:58:
I don't know if i should respond here, PM you, or start my own thread but do you still own that unit? […]
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I don't know if i should respond here, PM you, or start my own thread but do you still own that unit?

If so, would you possibly be able to help me out and document the pinout for the cable that connects the printer port on the case to the header on the motherboard so I can try and make a cable for mine?

I have a less expansion friendly version (model R00LX), but the only difference seems to be a thinner case with no place to mount an expansion card and no printer port on it.

Going to DIY either a full replacement enclosure or a docking station style setup so I can expand mine and not have it look like an eyesore, would be a massive help if you're able to provide the pinout.

Thanks in advance!

I still have some in my stock, yes, including some misc. units/parts. Let me see what I have, I should be able to either use a continuity tester to figure out the pin-out or I might possibly even just have a spare cable from a defective unit. I'll let you know sometime this upcoming week.

Reply 95 of 95, by lti

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aazard wrote on 2024-09-18, 01:18:
I was reviewing this thread more deeply, and noticed something "useful" I could mention: […]
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I was reviewing this thread more deeply, and noticed something "useful" I could mention:

Behringer UFO202 (UCA202 with phono preamp), has a "clone/look-a-like" (minus the fixed usb "rat tail", it uses USB B) > Thomann "Fun Generation UA-202", it also has S/PDIF out
https://www.thomannmusic.com/fun_generation_ua_202.htm
"Should" be driverless in Windows 98SE (I'm going to buy/test), Hyper cheap, sub-$20 USD ($17.70)
Device is made in China (but looks good at price point)

Note: UA-202 has no physical volume "roller"

The Behringer doesn't need drivers in 98SE, but it uses a clone of the original PCM2902 (marked "PCM2902E" for some reason). The UA-202 uses the PCM2902C, which has a few bug fixes (the earlier versions had some playback problems under some conditions, and they incorrectly reported that the line-in was a microphone input). The TI chips have much better sound quality than the usual cheap USB dongles with C-Media chips (or unknown chips with the same flaws), but note that they're basic stereo sound with no positional effects. Sadly, Sabrent and Startech charge $20 for the cheap crap dongles.

The multi-channel (5.1 or 7.1) USB boxes use a much better C-Media chip, but I haven't seen anyone use them in 98SE. They tend to be built much worse as well (I've seen some that had the caps installed backwards from the factory across multiple batches and PCB revisions).