VOGONS


Reply 40 of 81, by aazard

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from that post, you may enjoy reading: "The Ghost in the Machine" Vax mainframe decommission true story
https://www.red-gate.com/simple-talk/opinion/ … in-the-machine/

Aazard -
Mono Planar Mortal & Unascended Master
Retro Enthusiast & L3 Trouble Shooter
.... Getting old

Reply 41 of 81, by aazard

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Just the minimal boot disk. (These was borrowed and further updated from: https://github.com/codercowboy/freedosbootdisks) by Jason Baker, AKA: codercowboy
... these were 6 years out of date (so v1.2 based?), but only KERNEL.SYS & COMMAND.COM needed updating.

My Cloned Repo, WIP, used as base for project : https://github.com/aazard/EXTPE
TO DO:
- Licenses for all includes must be confirmed (+ redistribution allowance checks) > need to be combined into readme & a "Licenses" directory
- Readme needs rewrite to match desired target outcome and strip "the unneeded"
- Disk images/Boot-sector images = trimmed to target media 360kb/1200kb & 720kb/1440kb >> with 720kb as main target
- As above included/matching scripts must be edited to match desired target outcome and strip "the unneeded"
- "Base" Contents not yet updated > Update: COMMAND.COM to 0.85 + KERNEL.SYS to 2.43 (80x8 + FAT32 compatible, ke2043_86f32)

/

Disk Image formats:
Unneeded Media's?: 5.25" "old" 8-sector per track: 160kb, 180kb, "QUAD" odd-balls: 320kb, 640kb
Target Media's?: 5.25" "newer" DD/HD 9-sector per track: 360kb, 1200kb // 3.5" DD/HD Media: 720kb, 1440kb

3.5" 720kb disk "contents" will fit on a 5.25" 1200kb disk.
Therefor: Ideal target media/size limit remains ideal at 720kb

/

Tested FreeDOS 1.3 Boot disk images are minimal.
They only contain the following: KERNEL.SYS, CONFIG.SYS, AUTOEXEC.BAT & COMMAND.COM

AUTOEXEC.BAT = 1kb

ECHO OFF

REM NOTE: If you remove this file from your boot disks,
REM the FreeDOS boot will automaticall prompt user for date/time
REM That issue can be fixed by adding the "/D" flag in CONFIG.SYS
REM to the COMMAND.COM line , but /D will also make FreeDOS skip
REM execution of AUTOEXEC.BAT.
REM More info is here:
REM https://sourceforge.net/p/freedos/mailman/message/5156181/

cls

COMMAND.COM - FreeCom 0.85a = 83.4kb
CONFIG.SYS = 1kb

SWITCHES=/N
DOS=HIGH
;DEVICE=\FDOS\HIMEM.EXE /VERBOSE
;?DEVICE=\FDOS\EMM386.EXE /VERBOSE
;?DEVICE=\UMBPCI.SYS
FILES=20
BUFFERS=20
SHELL=A:\COMMAND.COM /E:512 /MSG /P
;SHELLHIGH=\COMMAND.COM /E:256 /P

KERNEL.SYS - Kernel 2.43. 8086 compatible build 2043-f32, supports FAT12/FAT16/FAT32 = 45.3kb

/

Approx. Total = 131kb

/

Some work/additions to existing AUTOEXEC.BAT & COMMAND.COM, will be needed

/

Easy XT PE ("Mostly" GUI Driven)
- DOS base "minimal" boot image, FreeDOS 1.3: 131kb total < FREEWARE
- CD-ROM device driver, CDROM.SYS: 4kb < FREEWARE (simple small, for data read access, likely to launch a DOS/OS setup to systems disk)
- Driver to access CD-ROM as a drive (MSCDEX replacment): SHSUCDX (7.8kb) < FREEWARE (nsm confirms "%define i8086" flag, it works)
- Mouse device driver: CTMOUSE 1.9.1 (5.6kb)< FREEWARE
- "Upper/EMS/XMS" Memory device driver: (unneeded in kernel of FreeDOS) 0kb
- Boot Manager/Loader, BOOTMGR (multi-BOOT ManaGeR): 6kb < FREEWARE
- File Manager, PC Valet Shell: 17kb (26K, 17K unpacked & recompressed with UPX), 11K more for the hex editor & other add ons (is this freeware?)
- Partition tool, Ranish Partition Manager 2.37: 57kb < FREEWARE
- Backup/Restore Tool - Norton Backup 2.0 (174kb? is this freeware?) // Back-It 4.0 185kb < OEM/FREEWARE

Consideration (but the size used is... concernig for what is offered, Point&Click-GUI)
- Base GUI Launcher: Costa, minimal = "desktop + mouse + 1 theme + 1 icon + def's/bsv's", desktop pre-configured, "only 175kb"? - FREEWARE - if mouse.com removed (& CTMOUSE is seen), save 35kb
- Something vastly "simpler" (wireframe "text gui" shell/launcher with mouse support??) , I'll do a little more digging

....SOME (2kb? max?) SPACE SPENT ON AUTOEXEC.BAT/CONFIG.SYS/ETC
... A basic/universal network driver (does this exist? I assume so)

413.4-422.4kb + 175kb ?GUI? = 588.4-597.4kb/ 720kb

/

This 120kb+ "free space" should allow the inclusion of:
- Some system info/health/test app?
- Some(?) basic networking?
- Testing shows "Landmark Service Diagnostics 2.x" to be an ideal, & compact, hardware info & health tester. 200kb (for AT 286 to 486) to 361kb (for XT 8088/8086)
Would require XT (8088/V20/8086/V30 class), AT (80286 class), 386, & 486 floppies to include the tools.
Note: "Landmark Service Diagnostics 2.x" may still be owned by Gen Digital Inc?

/

Trimming Back-It 4.1x (4.11 / 4.14) or reverting to Back-It 3.03 is required to meet space needs (Support for Tape drives seems unneeded) of approx. 132kb to 185kb

Aazard -
Mono Planar Mortal & Unascended Master
Retro Enthusiast & L3 Trouble Shooter
.... Getting old

Reply 42 of 81, by DaveDDS

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aazard wrote on 2024-09-05, 05:08:

Just the minimal boot disk.

Just in case anyone is interested...

In preparing my "DBBD" tool (DosBox Boot Dos), I made fairly minimal boot disks
for the various editions of DOS that I have on hand.
These are not intended to be full-fledged systems, just quick boots with the
tools I tend to use when I need them.
These are stored in 1.44M diskette image files.

// Microsoft MS-DOS 5.0
// ** This one is NOT freely-available, and I don't include it in the published
// version of DBBD - I have it in my own files because it's the one I use most!
1991-11-11 5:00:02 33430 IO.SYS
1991-11-11 5:00:02 37394 MSDOS.SYS
1991-11-11 5:00:02 47845 COMMAND.COM
1991-11-11 5:00:00 20154 DEBUG.EXE
1991-11-11 5:00:00 55390 EMM386.EXE
1991-11-11 5:00:00 26002 FDISK.EXE
1991-11-11 5:00:00 19985 FORMAT.COM
1991-11-11 5:00:00 29136 HIMEM.SYS
1991-11-11 5:00:00 25147 MEM.EXE
1991-11-11 5:00:00 5873 RAMDRIVE.SYS
1991-11-11 5:00:00 12262 SUBST.EXE
1991-11-11 5:00:00 8148 SYS.COM

// IBM PC-DOS 7.10
2003-12-17 15:30:30 44240 IBMBIO.COM
2003-12-17 15:30:30 42550 IBMDOS.COM
2003-12-17 15:30:30 53786 COMMAND.COM
2023-01-05 14:33:48 22376 FORMAT.COM
2023-01-05 14:33:54 8290 HIMEM.SYS
2023-01-05 14:33:54 14501 MEM.EXE
2023-01-05 14:34:06 13991 MODE.COM
2023-01-05 14:34:14 8529 SUBST.EXE
2023-01-05 14:34:18 8886 SYS.COM

// FreeDOS 0.84
2023-05-30 12:04:36 64046 EDIT.EXE
2023-05-30 12:04:36 30189 EDIT.HLP
2023-01-05 20:47:30 35880 FDISK.EXE
2023-05-30 12:04:36 8446 FDISK.INI
2023-05-30 12:04:36 31216 FORMAT.EXE
2023-05-30 12:04:36 5175 HIMEMX.EXE
2023-05-30 12:04:36 4129 LABEL.EXE
2023-01-05 20:48:00 15144 MEM.EXE
2023-01-05 20:48:02 16254 MODE.COM
2023-05-30 12:04:36 6942 MORE.EXE
2023-05-30 12:04:36 1779 PRINT.COM
2023-05-30 12:04:36 13349 REPLACE.EXE
2006-08-28 19:37:26 1409 COMMAND.COM
2023-05-30 12:04:36 4042 XMGR.SYS
2023-01-05 20:48:22 30802 SUBST.EXE
2023-01-05 20:48:26 12294 SYS.COM
2023-05-30 12:04:36 14965 UNDELETE.COM
2023-05-30 12:04:36 21636 UNFORMAT.EXE
2011-06-21 20:39:08 45344 KERNEL.SYS

// Caldera OpenDOS 7.01
1997-05-05 7:01:00 27880 IBMBIO.COM
1997-05-05 7:01:00 30081 IBMDOS.COM
1997-05-05 7:01:00 55365 COMMAND.COM
2023-06-14 17:17:34 7472 ASSIGN.COM
2023-06-14 17:17:34 7824 CHOICE.COM
2023-06-14 17:17:34 23987 DISKCOMP.COM
2023-06-14 17:17:34 24566 DISKCOPY.COM
2023-06-14 17:17:32 19291 FDISK.COM
2023-06-14 17:17:32 22670 FORMAT.COM
2023-06-14 17:17:32 40817 KEYB.COM
2023-06-14 17:17:34 16025 MODE.COM
2023-06-14 17:17:34 8388 MORE.COM
2023-06-14 17:17:32 16711 SYS.COM
2023-06-14 17:17:34 3244 APPEND.EXE
2023-06-14 17:17:34 59446 CHKDSK.EXE
2023-06-14 17:17:34 7532 CURSOR.EXE
2023-06-14 17:17:34 39634 DEBUG.EXE
2023-06-14 17:17:34 7763 DOSKEY.EXE
2023-06-14 17:17:34 9700 EXE2BIN.EXE
2023-06-14 17:17:34 2884 NLSFUNC.EXE
2023-06-14 17:17:32 14573 HIMEM.SYS

// Paragon Technology Systems PTS-DOS 6.41
2023-06-15 11:00:30 45189 COMMAND.COM
2023-06-16 12:17:08 8055 FDISK.COM
2023-06-16 12:17:08 7061 FORMAT.COM
2023-06-16 12:17:10 3306 SYS.COM
2023-06-16 12:17:08 4901 HIMEM286.SYS
2023-06-16 12:17:08 5715 HIMEM386.SYS
1995-11-10 18:42:34 15908 PTSBIO.SYS
1995-10-10 15:36:06 59562 PTSDOS.SYS

// I've added some of my own tools to all of the above
// Some of these are smaller/improved standard DOS tools, and some are my own
// things that I frequntly use
2022-08-14 23:34:32 2702 ATTRIB.COM
2021-06-22 7:18:38 4008 COMP.COM
2024-07-23 11:10:42 17256 DDLINK.COM Transfer files: Com, Lpt or Net
2022-08-14 23:26:02 2218 DDMODE.COM Set serial mode
2020-12-26 18:48:12 10946 EDT.EXE My own/favorite simple text editor
2023-03-21 8:13:36 5554 FCB.COM File Compare Binary
2023-03-21 8:13:44 6074 FCT.COM File Compare Text
2023-05-30 10:12:28 3964 FIND.COM
2023-03-21 8:05:10 6450 FVB.COM File View Binary
2023-03-21 8:04:50 7406 FVT.COM File View Text
2021-04-06 0:15:18 7020 PC.COM Programmers Calculator
2023-03-24 6:53:28 7788 SDT.COM Serial Debug Terminal
2022-08-04 6:41:26 3046 SORT.COM
2019-11-26 12:15:06 2474 TOUCH.COM Set file time/date stamp
2023-03-19 8:33:12 3668 TREE.COM
2021-03-24 11:49:46 5037 WDIR.COM Walk command through entire dir/tree
2022-07-27 6:52:26 4234 XCOPY.COM
2020-05-10 8:51:04 7388 XF.COM eXpress Find

// These are some third-party files I Added to the disks
2002-03-02 5:06:10 5569 NE2000.COM Packet driver (for DDLINK)
2020-05-03 11:36:30 28895 PKUNZIP.EXE useful to packup sets of...
2020-05-03 11:36:22 42488 PKZIP.EXE ...files that I move with DDLINK
2023-01-05 15:42:16 11844 XMSDSK.EXE RamDisk (all but MS-DOS 5)

Dave ::: https://dunfield.themindfactory.com ::: "Daves Old Computers"->Personal

Reply 43 of 81, by aazard

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looking at some back up options from: http://www.oldskool.org/guides/dosbackupshootout

dos-backups-v0-hpufzkcq23nd1.png?width=2522&format=png&auto=webp&s=80ea534931761ce03d936022deb47de0d9d262ff

Aazard -
Mono Planar Mortal & Unascended Master
Retro Enthusiast & L3 Trouble Shooter
.... Getting old

Reply 44 of 81, by aazard

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These appear to have been for "free" (OEM/Bundle):
- Toolworks Backup Pro 1.03 - 1990 - Bundled with HDD's & Motherboards (OEM/Bundle)
- Back-It, 3.03/4.1x- 1987/1993 - Bundled with Tape Drives, HDD's & Motherboards (OEM/Bundle)
- Backup Exec 2.1.2 - 1993 - Bundled with MS-DOS 6.0 (& other sources, I can only find one specific reference: with Seagate HDD's), as free utility addon (OEM/Bundle)
- Central Point Backup 6.x - 1992? - Bundled with IBM PC-DOS 2000, which itself is freely available
- Microsoft Backup 6.0 (Based on Norton Backup) - 1994 - Bundled with MS-DOS 6.22, which is not "freely" available (I am 99.9% sure this is NOT an option)

/

Toolworks Backup Pro 1.03 - 1990 - Looks good, its "small" (for feature set) & has desired features:
- 8088/XT's Supported
- Drop down menus, mouse support, "On the fly" reconfiguration of drives/options
- Dual read/write DMA
- Full/Incremental Modes, Compression, Format, Verify, Compare & Calculate options
- Media Support: Floppy = 5.25": 360kb & 1200kb, 3.5": 720kb & 1440kb Removable DOS drive = Tape/Etc., Fixed DOS Drive = 2nd HDD/Etc, Network Drive = Remote Disk
4f068fcc663a1badabe38ed4e3bbeb59f5a296ede4066e9c7b29976edca5930e.png

Last edited by aazard on 2024-09-06, 03:22. Edited 6 times in total.

Aazard -
Mono Planar Mortal & Unascended Master
Retro Enthusiast & L3 Trouble Shooter
.... Getting old

Reply 45 of 81, by aazard

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DaveDDS wrote on 2024-09-05, 23:15:
Just in case anyone is interested... […]
Show full quote
aazard wrote on 2024-09-05, 05:08:

Just the minimal boot disk.

Just in case anyone is interested...

In preparing my "DBBD" tool (DosBox Boot Dos), I made fairly minimal boot disks
for the various editions of DOS that I have on hand.
These are not intended to be full-fledged systems, just quick boots with the
tools I tend to use when I need them.
These are stored in 1.44M diskette image files.

// Microsoft MS-DOS 5.0
// ** This one is NOT freely-available, and I don't include it in the published
// version of DBBD - I have it in my own files because it's the one I use most!
1991-11-11 5:00:02 33430 IO.SYS
1991-11-11 5:00:02 37394 MSDOS.SYS
1991-11-11 5:00:02 47845 COMMAND.COM
1991-11-11 5:00:00 20154 DEBUG.EXE
1991-11-11 5:00:00 55390 EMM386.EXE
1991-11-11 5:00:00 26002 FDISK.EXE
1991-11-11 5:00:00 19985 FORMAT.COM
1991-11-11 5:00:00 29136 HIMEM.SYS
1991-11-11 5:00:00 25147 MEM.EXE
1991-11-11 5:00:00 5873 RAMDRIVE.SYS
1991-11-11 5:00:00 12262 SUBST.EXE
1991-11-11 5:00:00 8148 SYS.COM

// IBM PC-DOS 7.10
2003-12-17 15:30:30 44240 IBMBIO.COM
2003-12-17 15:30:30 42550 IBMDOS.COM
2003-12-17 15:30:30 53786 COMMAND.COM
2023-01-05 14:33:48 22376 FORMAT.COM
2023-01-05 14:33:54 8290 HIMEM.SYS
2023-01-05 14:33:54 14501 MEM.EXE
2023-01-05 14:34:06 13991 MODE.COM
2023-01-05 14:34:14 8529 SUBST.EXE
2023-01-05 14:34:18 8886 SYS.COM

// FreeDOS 0.84
2023-05-30 12:04:36 64046 EDIT.EXE
2023-05-30 12:04:36 30189 EDIT.HLP
2023-01-05 20:47:30 35880 FDISK.EXE
2023-05-30 12:04:36 8446 FDISK.INI
2023-05-30 12:04:36 31216 FORMAT.EXE
2023-05-30 12:04:36 5175 HIMEMX.EXE
2023-05-30 12:04:36 4129 LABEL.EXE
2023-01-05 20:48:00 15144 MEM.EXE
2023-01-05 20:48:02 16254 MODE.COM
2023-05-30 12:04:36 6942 MORE.EXE
2023-05-30 12:04:36 1779 PRINT.COM
2023-05-30 12:04:36 13349 REPLACE.EXE
2006-08-28 19:37:26 1409 COMMAND.COM
2023-05-30 12:04:36 4042 XMGR.SYS
2023-01-05 20:48:22 30802 SUBST.EXE
2023-01-05 20:48:26 12294 SYS.COM
2023-05-30 12:04:36 14965 UNDELETE.COM
2023-05-30 12:04:36 21636 UNFORMAT.EXE
2011-06-21 20:39:08 45344 KERNEL.SYS

// Caldera OpenDOS 7.01
1997-05-05 7:01:00 27880 IBMBIO.COM
1997-05-05 7:01:00 30081 IBMDOS.COM
1997-05-05 7:01:00 55365 COMMAND.COM
2023-06-14 17:17:34 7472 ASSIGN.COM
2023-06-14 17:17:34 7824 CHOICE.COM
2023-06-14 17:17:34 23987 DISKCOMP.COM
2023-06-14 17:17:34 24566 DISKCOPY.COM
2023-06-14 17:17:32 19291 FDISK.COM
2023-06-14 17:17:32 22670 FORMAT.COM
2023-06-14 17:17:32 40817 KEYB.COM
2023-06-14 17:17:34 16025 MODE.COM
2023-06-14 17:17:34 8388 MORE.COM
2023-06-14 17:17:32 16711 SYS.COM
2023-06-14 17:17:34 3244 APPEND.EXE
2023-06-14 17:17:34 59446 CHKDSK.EXE
2023-06-14 17:17:34 7532 CURSOR.EXE
2023-06-14 17:17:34 39634 DEBUG.EXE
2023-06-14 17:17:34 7763 DOSKEY.EXE
2023-06-14 17:17:34 9700 EXE2BIN.EXE
2023-06-14 17:17:34 2884 NLSFUNC.EXE
2023-06-14 17:17:32 14573 HIMEM.SYS

// Paragon Technology Systems PTS-DOS 6.41
2023-06-15 11:00:30 45189 COMMAND.COM
2023-06-16 12:17:08 8055 FDISK.COM
2023-06-16 12:17:08 7061 FORMAT.COM
2023-06-16 12:17:10 3306 SYS.COM
2023-06-16 12:17:08 4901 HIMEM286.SYS
2023-06-16 12:17:08 5715 HIMEM386.SYS
1995-11-10 18:42:34 15908 PTSBIO.SYS
1995-10-10 15:36:06 59562 PTSDOS.SYS

// I've added some of my own tools to all of the above
// Some of these are smaller/improved standard DOS tools, and some are my own
// things that I frequntly use
2022-08-14 23:34:32 2702 ATTRIB.COM
2021-06-22 7:18:38 4008 COMP.COM
2024-07-23 11:10:42 17256 DDLINK.COM Transfer files: Com, Lpt or Net
2022-08-14 23:26:02 2218 DDMODE.COM Set serial mode
2020-12-26 18:48:12 10946 EDT.EXE My own/favorite simple text editor
2023-03-21 8:13:36 5554 FCB.COM File Compare Binary
2023-03-21 8:13:44 6074 FCT.COM File Compare Text
2023-05-30 10:12:28 3964 FIND.COM
2023-03-21 8:05:10 6450 FVB.COM File View Binary
2023-03-21 8:04:50 7406 FVT.COM File View Text
2021-04-06 0:15:18 7020 PC.COM Programmers Calculator
2023-03-24 6:53:28 7788 SDT.COM Serial Debug Terminal
2022-08-04 6:41:26 3046 SORT.COM
2019-11-26 12:15:06 2474 TOUCH.COM Set file time/date stamp
2023-03-19 8:33:12 3668 TREE.COM
2021-03-24 11:49:46 5037 WDIR.COM Walk command through entire dir/tree
2022-07-27 6:52:26 4234 XCOPY.COM
2020-05-10 8:51:04 7388 XF.COM eXpress Find

// These are some third-party files I Added to the disks
2002-03-02 5:06:10 5569 NE2000.COM Packet driver (for DDLINK)
2020-05-03 11:36:30 28895 PKUNZIP.EXE useful to packup sets of...
2020-05-03 11:36:22 42488 PKZIP.EXE ...files that I move with DDLINK
2023-01-05 15:42:16 11844 XMSDSK.EXE RamDisk (all but MS-DOS 5)

Dave ::: https://dunfield.themindfactory.com ::: "Daves Old Computers"->Personal

Thank you

Due to the issues of "providing" the DOS boot disk, looks like IBM PC-DOS or FreeDOS (or MS-DOS, up to 4.x, that is Open Sourced)
Suggestions on my musings of options?

Aazard -
Mono Planar Mortal & Unascended Master
Retro Enthusiast & L3 Trouble Shooter
.... Getting old

Reply 46 of 81, by DaveDDS

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aazard wrote on 2024-09-06, 00:30:

looking at some back up options

I don't know if this would interest you, but back in the day", I created a little tool called
"SYNC" - single .COM file less than 8K.

Sync will "synchronize" to directory trees, I used it to do most of my backing up.
(In DOS, I tended to use "removable drive carriers" which let me easily plug
another hard drive into the system - which were IDE drives at the time).

I had a couple which was a exact copies of my C: drive, that would mount as D:
when inserted.

SYNC C:\ D:\

would copy any files/directories which had changed. It would also prompt me if I wanted to
delete from the backup any files/directories which had been removed.

Made it very easy to keep full up-to-date backups!

More recently I created DDCCV (DaveDsCopyCompareVerify) a WIN32 program that does essentially
the same thing but more interactively with additional options to view the differences etc.

Dave ::: https://dunfield.themindfactory.com ::: "Daves Old Computers"->Personal

Reply 47 of 81, by DaveDDS

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aazard wrote on 2024-09-06, 02:17:

Due to the issues of "providing" the DOS boot disk, looks like IBM PC-DOS or FreeDOS (or MS-DOS, up to 4.x, that is Open Sourced)
Suggestions on my musings of options?

IBM PC-DOS and Microsoft MS-DOS are very related, and much of the code is
identical - PC-DOS was originally developed by Microsoft for IBM and they later
produced their "own" version: MS-DOS, which became pretty much the standard for
DOS systems.

I've been using PCs since the very early days, I actually ran PC-DOS 1.0 and
1.1 ... but I spent many years running MS-DOS 3.3 and later MS-DOS 5.0 (which
I still have on a couple DOS-only systems)

I've found PC-DOS 7.1 (the freely available one) to be VERY compatible with
MS-DOS - When I decided to publish a stand-alone bootable ImageDisk setup (so
you didn't have to have DOS on a system, I decided to use PC-DOS and have not
had problem reports).

Having said that, IBM never "officially" made PC-DOS freeware, it happened to
be on the free "serverguide scripting toolkit" that they published and made
freely available... I do know that a few others have also used it as a base, or
otherwise made it available and have never heard of anyone having problems
doing so.

Do be aware that SYS.COM provided with the above IBM distribution appears
to have not been updated with that PC-DOS version, and fails with a version
mismatch - I patched it to resolve the problem, and you can get the patches
SYS.COM from the PCDOS boot image within my DBBD tool.

I considered moving it to FreeDos at one point, but did encounter some
compatibility problems, and given that the FreeDos developers had seemed
somewhat antagonistic toward me, I pretty much abandoned any ideas of using
it (The only reason I have it now is that there was a bootable image on a Tablet
version of DosBox that I tried!) I've not really looked at the others much.

Dave ::: https://dunfield.themindfactory.com ::: "Daves Old Computers"->Personal

Reply 48 of 81, by aazard

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DaveDDS wrote on 2024-09-06, 12:29:
IBM PC-DOS and Microsoft MS-DOS are very related, and much of the code is identical - PC-DOS was originally developed by Microso […]
Show full quote
aazard wrote on 2024-09-06, 02:17:

Due to the issues of "providing" the DOS boot disk, looks like IBM PC-DOS or FreeDOS (or MS-DOS, up to 4.x, that is Open Sourced)
Suggestions on my musings of options?

IBM PC-DOS and Microsoft MS-DOS are very related, and much of the code is
identical - PC-DOS was originally developed by Microsoft for IBM and they later
produced their "own" version: MS-DOS, which became pretty much the standard for
DOS systems.

I've been using PCs since the very early days, I actually ran PC-DOS 1.0 and
1.1 ... but I spent many years running MS-DOS 3.3 and later MS-DOS 5.0 (which
I still have on a couple DOS-only systems)

I've found PC-DOS 7.1 (the freely available one) to be VERY compatible with
MS-DOS - When I decided to publish a stand-alone bootable ImageDisk setup (so
you didn't have to have DOS on a system, I decided to use PC-DOS and have not
had problem reports).

Having said that, IBM never "officially" made PC-DOS freeware, it happened to
be on the free "serverguide scripting toolkit" that they published and made
freely available... I do know that a few others have also used it as a base, or
otherwise made it available and have never heard of anyone having problems
doing so.

Do be aware that SYS.COM provided with the above IBM distribution appears
to have not been updated with that PC-DOS version, and fails with a version
mismatch - I patched it to resolve the problem, and you can get the patches
SYS.COM from the PCDOS boot image within my DBBD tool.

I considered moving it to FreeDos at one point, but did encounter some
compatibility problems, and given that the FreeDos developers had seemed
somewhat antagonistic toward me, I pretty much abandoned any ideas of using
it (The only reason I have it now is that there was a bootable image on a Tablet
version of DosBox that I tried!) I've not really looked at the others much.

Dave ::: https://dunfield.themindfactory.com ::: "Daves Old Computers"->Personal

"Having said that, IBM never "officially" made PC-DOS freeware, it happened to
be on the free "serverguide scripting toolkit" that they published and made
freely available... "

PC-DOS 2000 ("IBM PC DOS 7.00, revision 1") was bundled, for free, in the free release of Connectix VirtualPC
The "Serverguide Scripting Toolkit 1.3.07" has the PC-DOS 7.1 files (link: https://www.ibm.com/support/pages/ibm-serverg … on-version-1307)

//// start

From: https://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/59703.html

(Referring to IBM PC-DOS 2000) - This was bundled for free with Connectix VirtualPC 4.0. VirtualPC is now owned by Microsoft and is a free download. Old versions are out there, e.g.
https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/connectix-vi … l-pc-40-upgrade

(Referring to FREELY distributed PC-DOS 2000 files "pre-separated") - Just the PC DOS 2000 disk image, converted to VirtualBox VDI format, compressed in Zip format, is here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ivwsi7fu0y4zvpk/PC_ … 00.vdi.zip?dl=0
It's about 10MB.

Note: this is the complete, unmodified Connectix VirtualPC DOS image. It contains DOS integration tools for VirtualPC that do not work with VirtualBox. VirtualBox does not have guest additions for DOS. You will see some minor errors as it boots due to this.

///// end

This is my Copy (& the accompanying manuals) uploaded to archive, built using the "legal roll your own method"
https://archive.org/details/pcdos-71_202408

ALSO:

The "DOS Boot Disk Easy and Fast" at https://www.philscomputerlab.com/dos-boot-dis … -easy-fast.html contains a few useful scripts that can easily be modified for use in installing IBM PC-DOS 7.1.
But needs a few Add-in's:
- Replace Main Boot disk contents & DOS folder contents with PC-DOS 7.1 equivalents > (edit ALL scripts to account for changes)
- Add to DOS Folder = HIRAM, EMU87, EMM286, EMU386, EMM386, SHSUCDX (addition to/replacement for MSCDEX), UMBPCI.SYS & LASTBYTE.SYS > (edit ALL scripts to account for changes)
- Add to Drivers folder = CDROM.SYS (addition to/replacement for VIDECDD.SYS). Plus trim out the 3 non-CTM21B4 mouse drivers > (edit ALL scripts to account for changes)
- Edit readme to account for "E" (replacing "edit"), "fdisk32" (replacing fdisk) and detail uses of format/format32
- Final pass to triple check ALL scripts to account for changes!!
Why: Only CDROM.SYS, VIDE-CDD.SYS, & SHSUCDX or MSCDEX work on a 8088 to 80286. The others "crash" the system on startup (according to reading/my dosbox-x testing). + More boot options.

Should still fit on a 1440kb floppy (PC-DOS 7.1 is 939kb alone, vs MS-DOS 6.22's 840kb), plus approx. 100kb in added files/drivers (approx. 939kb + 500kb = 1439kb).

projects projects....

Last edited by aazard on 2024-09-07, 02:04. Edited 22 times in total.

Aazard -
Mono Planar Mortal & Unascended Master
Retro Enthusiast & L3 Trouble Shooter
.... Getting old

Reply 49 of 81, by aazard

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Do be aware that SYS.COM provided with the above IBM distribution appears to have not been updated with that PC-DOS version, and […]
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Do be aware that SYS.COM provided with the above IBM distribution appears
to have not been updated with that PC-DOS version, and fails with a version
mismatch - I patched it to resolve the problem, and you can get the patches
SYS.COM from the PCDOS boot image within my DBBD tool.

I have not seen this in my copy, but mind you, I am emulating an 8086 system (DOSBox-X)
as getting my Pocket8086 into Canada via customs, is proving challenging currently.....

Did I miss a link in your post to that system file?

Aazard -
Mono Planar Mortal & Unascended Master
Retro Enthusiast & L3 Trouble Shooter
.... Getting old

Reply 50 of 81, by DaveDDS

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aazard wrote on 2024-09-06, 23:49:

I have not seen this in my copy, but mind you, I am emulating an 8086 system (DOSBox-X)
as getting my Pocket8086 into Canada via customs, is proving challenging currently.....

Did I miss a link in your post to that system file?

;;This is with PC-DOS 7.1 (from the IBM server guide scripting toolkit):
ibm_sw_sgtk_1_3_07_anyos_anycpu.zip
;; Booted under DosBox using my DBBD tool - The system boots from A: and has
;; the following CONFIG.SYS
DOS=HIGH
DEVICE=HIMEM.SYS
LASTDRIVE=Z
;; and AUTOEXEC.BAT
@echo OFF
xmsdsk /Y /C1 C: 4096
ne2000 0x60 9 0x300
path A:\
C:
;; As you can see, it mounts a RAMDRIVE as C: and switches to it.
;; My boot disk image has the "patched" SYS.COM (which works)
;; After it booted, I extracted SYS.COM from the above .ZIP file on
;; the host and used DDLINK to transfer it to the C: RAMdisk
C:\> ver
PC DOS Version 7.1
Revision 0

; This is the "patched" one from my boot disk image
C:\> a:sys
Require parameter missing

; This is the one on C: which came directly from the IBM published .ZIP
C:\> c:sys
Incorrect Dos version

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

You can get my PCDOS boot disk image from: MySite(below)->Downloads->DBBD
The enclosed FDI.COM (FloppyDiskImage) will let you easily extract individual files
from the image.

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

Are you in Canada? - Approx. where? (I'm near Ottawa) [send me a PM if you don't want to say publically]

Dave ::: https://dunfield.themindfactory.com ::: "Daves Old Computers"->Personal

Reply 51 of 81, by aazard

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Yes, I'm in London Ontario

Thats a nice site, few wonderings....
Host used?
Content management system used?

/
Tossed a fresh rolled, from my build sources, PC-DOS 7.1.ima into "Qemu Simple Boot" (I find it a very simple/fast/compatible tool for such tasks) > queried the "a:sys" > I indeed received "Incorrect DOS version" error!

I grabbed the, 9kb, SYS.COM via 7zip (Win10 host), from:
DBBD\DBBDBOOT\PCDOS~\SYS.COM

I believe this is the correct one?
With your permission I will update my repos/archive to include the updated/patched SYS.COM (I will credit you of course), to "spread" the fix/knowledge of????

/

puff.. I better brush on syntax for PC-DOS 2000/7 .1 vs MS-DOS 6.22/7.1

Aazard -
Mono Planar Mortal & Unascended Master
Retro Enthusiast & L3 Trouble Shooter
.... Getting old

Reply 52 of 81, by DaveDDS

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aazard wrote on 2024-09-07, 13:59:

Thats a nice site, few wonderings....
Host used?
Content management system used?

To be honest I don't really know much about the host

I had my own company site for years "dunfield.com", but while I was laid up
in hospital it expired, and someone I don't know purchased the domain and has
been kindly offering to rent it back to me - needless to say I've declined. A friend
has been letting me use space on his server to keep some stuff posted/available.

Unlike my original setup, I don't FTP to it, it has a web interface where you just
"drag" files on/off of it through a browser interface. All I can tell you is that the
login to it says "plesk web pro edition".

As far as "Content management", unlike many others, my site is entirely hand-
written HTML (to be fair, I use my own TXP (TeXtPreprocessor) to make the
actual files I maintain quite a bit simpler and it auto-generates .HTML files
from those). I keep my own files/notes to keep track of what is where, and I've
written a little scanner to keep track of what changes and give me a list of what
I need to update once logged into the site!

aazard wrote on 2024-09-07, 13:59:
I grabbed the, 9kb, SYS.COM via 7zip (Win10 host), from: DBBD\DBBDBOOT\PCDOS~\SYS.COM […]
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I grabbed the, 9kb, SYS.COM via 7zip (Win10 host), from:
DBBD\DBBDBOOT\PCDOS~\SYS.COM

I believe this is the correct one?
With your permission I will update my repos/archive to include the updated/patched SYS.COM (I will credit you of course), to "spread" the fix/knowledge of????

Yes, that has my updated SYS.COM, and of course you can use it!
I would however first verify that the one you already have in the archive DOES have the
version mismatch bug (IIRC you previously indicated that your copy didn't seem to have
it) -- In the interest of keeping my disks small, many of my executables are compressed
(sometimes UPX - but often my own compressor for .COMs)

IIRC my patched SYS.COM is literally a 1 or 2 byte change from the original IBM one
uncompressed. If you wish I could probably regenerate it and give you an uncompressed
one.

Dave ::: https://dunfield.themindfactory.com ::: "Daves Old Computers"->Personal

Reply 53 of 81, by DaveDDS

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aazard wrote on 2024-09-06, 23:49:

I have not seen this in my copy, but mind you, I am emulating an 8086 system (DOSBox-X)
as getting my Pocket8086 into Canada via customs, is proving challenging currently.....

Is that by chance a "Poquet PC"?

I 've wanted one of those for years, and just recently actually got one!
This is "just the unit itself" and I'm planning to make a cable which will let me
use the serial port (Once I have that, I can DDLINK stuff on/off very easily)

I've made a connector which fits from on old PCI card, but what I've still got to figure
out is if the RS-232 level converters are inside the unit or should be built into the cable.

If your is a Poquet and you have the cable, I might ask you to take some voltage
measurements on a few pins once you have it.

Dave ::: https://dunfield.themindfactory.com ::: "Daves Old Computers"->Personal

Reply 54 of 81, by aazard

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DaveDDS wrote on 2024-09-07, 14:52:
Is that by chance a "Poquet PC"? […]
Show full quote
aazard wrote on 2024-09-06, 23:49:

I have not seen this in my copy, but mind you, I am emulating an 8086 system (DOSBox-X)
as getting my Pocket8086 into Canada via customs, is proving challenging currently.....

Is that by chance a "Poquet PC"?

I 've wanted one of those for years, and just recently actually got one!
This is "just the unit itself" and I'm planning to make a cable which will let me
use the serial port (Once I have that, I can DDLINK stuff on/off very easily)

I've made a connector which fits from on old PCI card, but what I've still got to figure
out is if the RS-232 level converters are inside the unit or should be built into the cable.

If your is a Poquet and you have the cable, I might ask you to take some voltage
measurements on a few pins once you have it.

Dave ::: https://dunfield.themindfactory.com ::: "Daves Old Computers"->Personal

its from here: http://8086cpu.com/

You have likely seen one, a "real" (hardware real) modern NEC v30 powered XT 7:
- 4.77mhz/10mhz NEC V30 > no FPU expansion (used to have FPU expansion on old 8088 unit, but performance is x2 "old"8088+8087 VS "new" with Nec V30 alone)
- 768KB RAM (640 + 128 UMB)
- OPL3 (Yamaha YMF262-M) Sound Card
- Replaceable VGA Card, as TVGA9000 512kb ( CL-GD542X / TVGA9000 / CHIPS F655xx )
- Seamless Online Switching between 4:3 and 16:9 display ratios. (640x480 / 800x480)
- CF Card (IDE Mode) Storage
- USB Controller (CH375B)
- all Ports and 3-slot 8bit ISA expansion to external
dos-backups-v0-b6h8o0g8pend1.png?width=1000&format=png&auto=webp&s=f6b8021ee7dc276a2f6b49eed73adcb59c8cacdb

they also do a "hardware real" 80368sx unit:
- 386 SX (40MHz) Embedded in an Ali M6117 > no FPU expansion
- 768kb (640 + 128 UMB) + 8MB DRAM
- OPL3 (Yamaha YMF262-M) Sound Card
- Replaceable VGA Card , as TVGA9000 512kb ( CL-GD542X / TVGA9000 / CHIPS F655xx )
- Seamless Online Switching between 4:3 and 16:9 display ratios. (640x480 / 800x480)
- CF Card (IDE Mode) Storage
- USB Controller (CH375B)
- all Ports and 3-slot 8bit/16bit ISA expansion to external
dos-backups-v0-d3juvq4upend1.png?width=1000&format=png&auto=webp&s=2f9f26700a051d93dd3325faa60de8cd64a9b4f5

Last edited by aazard on 2024-09-07, 16:18. Edited 2 times in total.

Aazard -
Mono Planar Mortal & Unascended Master
Retro Enthusiast & L3 Trouble Shooter
.... Getting old

Reply 55 of 81, by aazard

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Ok for the "1st round" of testing of my "EXTPE".....

Opinions:
- FreeDOS is terrible on "old hardware" (on pre-386, atleast when emulated) options + "more" complicated to build to the lay person (IMHO)
- Back-It v4.1x is "too full featured" towards "tape/zip/similar" backups > ToolWorks Pro's is nearly as simple, with better support from a "modern view" (all floppies, network or "any" feasible connected drive)
- My UPX seems to hate me...or PC Valet (I seem unable to "unpack & repack" to save the 9kb), I think this is a PEBKEC issue

I'm going to try a 2nd round of testing on a PC-DOS 7.1 boot disk base, and report

Last edited by aazard on 2024-09-07, 16:32. Edited 2 times in total.

Aazard -
Mono Planar Mortal & Unascended Master
Retro Enthusiast & L3 Trouble Shooter
.... Getting old

Reply 56 of 81, by aazard

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Here is my fixed copy of PC-DOS 7.1, with your sys.com
/

I notice "other" file differences, I am not familiar with, if you were able to take a peak at my copy (I believe its correct, but a 2nd pair of eyes cant hurt)

Forgive any WIP directories/folders for various scripts, emm/emu's and additional dos files/drivers (all freeware versions)
SHSUCD86.COM use + CDROM.SYS is something I really need to get around to testing
readme's/txt files need "through" pruning pass (massive space savings possible, maybe 75kb+)

Once "organized" these additions are met to be placed in "For 80x8" (split over 2x 720kb floppies), "For 286", "For 368", "For 486", "For No FPU" & "For Pentium Class+" directories/folders... but I have yet to complete through testing

Aazard -
Mono Planar Mortal & Unascended Master
Retro Enthusiast & L3 Trouble Shooter
.... Getting old

Reply 57 of 81, by aazard

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Seeing the main target of my EXTPE is pre-386 systems, which will likely install/maintain PC-DOS7.x, I may as well rejig these projects to align (I see no way it would interfere with MS-DOS maintenance/installs), as they (both projects) will share components?

Aazard -
Mono Planar Mortal & Unascended Master
Retro Enthusiast & L3 Trouble Shooter
.... Getting old

Reply 58 of 81, by DaveDDS

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aazard wrote on 2024-09-07, 16:09:

I notice "other" file differences, I am not familiar with, if you were able to take a peak at my copy (I believe its correct, but a 2nd pair of eyes cant hurt)

You've added thing, and I've compressed some of mine, so what I did was take
the original content of the IBM "serverguide scripting toolkit" .ZIP that I
extracted my PC-DOS 7.1 files from:
ibm_sw_sgtk_1_3_07_anyos_anycpu.zip

and compared the DOS subdirectory of that (which is where the files I used were
located) and compareed it with the your DOS subdirectory.

Note that I did this in my RAMdisk and for ease of typing and compatibility
with 8.3 names, I unpacked them to:
ibm_sw_sgtk_1_3_07_anyos_anycpu.zip -> R:\IBM
PCDOS71_new.7z -> R:\PCD

R:\>comp R:\PCD\DOS R:\IBM\SGDEPLOY\SGTK\DOS
Compare: R:\PCD\DOS\*
with: R:\IBM\SGDEPLOY\SGTK\DOS\*
Not: R:\IBM\SGDEPLOY\SGTK\DOS\EMM386.EXE
Not: R:\IBM\SGDEPLOY\SGTK\DOS\FINDRAM.EXE
Not: R:\IBM\SGDEPLOY\SGTK\DOS\MOUSE.INI
Siz: SYS.COM
44 File(s) 4 difference(s).

FYI, this is what's in my copy of: ibm_sw_sgtk_1_3_07_anyos_anycpu.zip
-I had pasted a HUGE dir listing into this port - which made it far too big! I have
- attached a .ZIP of in instead: IBM_LST.ZIP contains: ibm_sw_sgtk_1_3_07_anyos_anycpu.TXT

Dave ::: https://dunfield.themindfactory.com ::: "Daves Old Computers"->Personal

Last edited by DaveDDS on 2024-09-08, 10:17. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 59 of 81, by DaveDDS

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aazard wrote on 2024-09-07, 15:34:

its from here: http://8086cpu.com/

Very cool - I didn't know these existed (to be fair I've not looked in a long time)
- I didn't know anyone even made 8088/86/V30 compatible PC/XTs anymore!

The "Poqet" I mentioned is from a long time ago - IIRC it's from 1989
and is an 80C88 CPU in a fairly basic DOS system. It's got 640k memory,
and a couple add-on 512M battery-backed-up "ram" drives - but it is TINY
- the size of a big calculator! It runs on 2 AA cells, so power is limited and it
"turns off" things like the serial port when it's no being used (and it's on a very
odd/proprietary connector) - It has MS-DOS 3.3 in ROM, and many of it's support
files - including DEBUG .. I got it to raise/lower DTR this evening, so hopefully
I'll have it "talking" sometime soon!

Dave ::: https://dunfield.themindfactory.com ::: "Daves Old Computers"->Personal