BigDave wrote on 2024-05-26, 20:29:

Sorry just jumping in based on the thread topic, rather than thread conversation, so excuse me if it's already been mentioned. M […]
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Sorry just jumping in based on the thread topic, rather than thread conversation, so excuse me if it's already been mentioned.
My first ever introduction to emulation was Microsoft Arcade for Windows 3.1, 1993/4? the follow ups Return & Revenge both Win 95.
I'm pretty sure it was emulated, rather than simulated, as it had some DIP switch settings. Most, but not all 90s emulators I remember, and had on my website back then were for DOS.
I own a C64 Web.it computer, but it's not a C64 at all, it's basically a low spec Win3.1 system, running a C64 emulator, I think it's CCS64. So weirdly, it's the only Win3.1 computer I've owned.

Hi, no worries! Thanks for tip! ^^ The game pack reminds a bit of Activision's Atari 2600 collection (Win31/95), by the way.
If we're lucky it might run on Windows 3.0 MME, even. Microsoft did support Windows 3.0 still very well in the early 90s.

The Web.it surely is, um, special. It runs an interesting version of Windows 3.1x, to say the least.
It's an rare IBM version of Windows, even. Very interesting!

A few of the emulators here might be able to run on the Web.it hardware, even, maybe.
On the other hand though, the Web.it might be a bit too previous to be playing around with in such a way.

Jo22 wrote on 2024-05-28, 03:18:

They did indeed, certainly the software bundle I got with my first Win95 PC, were all older DOS or Win 3.x titles, including Wo […]
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BigDave wrote on 2024-05-26, 20:29:

Sorry just jumping in based on the thread topic, rather than thread conversation, so excuse me if it's already been mentioned. M […]
Show full quote

Sorry just jumping in based on the thread topic, rather than thread conversation, so excuse me if it's already been mentioned.
My first ever introduction to emulation was Microsoft Arcade for Windows 3.1, 1993/4? the follow ups Return & Revenge both Win 95.
I'm pretty sure it was emulated, rather than simulated, as it had some DIP switch settings. Most, but not all 90s emulators I remember, and had on my website back then were for DOS.
I own a C64 Web.it computer, but it's not a C64 at all, it's basically a low spec Win3.1 system, running a C64 emulator, I think it's CCS64. So weirdly, it's the only Win3.1 computer I've owned.

Hi, no worries! Thanks for tip! ^^ The game pack reminds a bit of Activision's Atari 2600 collection (Win31/95), by the way.
If we're lucky it might run on Windows 3.0 MME, even. Microsoft did support Windows 3.0 still very well in the early 90s.

They did indeed, certainly the software bundle I got with my first Win95 PC, were all older DOS or Win 3.x titles, including Works, Money & Lotus Smartsuite apart from the OEM Win95 CD of course. I ended buying all the commercial PC, emulator titles by Microsoft, Atari, Digital Eclipse etc, mainly for added extras.

The Web.it surely is, um, special. It runs an interesting version of Windows 3.1x, to say the least. It's an rare IBM version of […]
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The Web.it surely is, um, special. It runs an interesting version of Windows 3.1x, to say the least.
It's an rare IBM version of Windows, even. Very interesting!

A few of the emulators here might be able to run on the Web.it hardware, even, maybe.
On the other hand though, the Web.it might be a bit too previous to be playing around with in such a way.

Special is one word for it, but never realised it has a rare version of Windows, I'll have to try it out again. Mine is all boxed complete with manuals & BT click, so pretty rare here in the UK. It has some built-in Lotus office applications too, like 1-2-3 , not sure of versions. It's pretty neat, and specs quite useable, IIRC it's a 486 'Elan' CPU, and 8 or 16mb Ram., even a modem, it's just the C64 emulation was rubbish. I did get some games to run it, including the old AMOAD emulator disks (Arcade Machine on a Disk). Some time ago I was part of the C64 tape preservation project, made a lot of contributions, and at the time agreed to sell it to the website owner in Norway, but lost contact, shame. I can't remember, but think I got if from a TV shopping channel, called ' SHOP!'

BigDave wrote on 2024-05-28, 16:15:

Special is one word for it, but never realised it has a rare version of Windows, I'll have to try it out again. Mine is all boxed complete with manuals & BT click, so pretty rare here in the UK. It has some built-in Lotus office applications too, like 1-2-3 , not sure of versions. It's pretty neat, and specs quite useable, IIRC it's a 486 'Elan' CPU, and 8 or 16mb Ram., even a modem, it's just the C64 emulation was rubbish. I did get some games to run it, including the old AMOAD emulator disks (Arcade Machine on a Disk). Some time ago I was part of the C64 tape preservation project, made a lot of contributions, and at the time agreed to sell it to the website owner in Norway, but lost contact, shame. I can't remember, but think I got if from a TV shopping channel, called ' SHOP!'

Hi, I can be wrong but I vaguely remember that some individuals tried to translate a localized Web.it version of Windows back to English.
It was on another forum, the title of the thread was "EmbOS Translation" or similar.

EmbOS probably means Embedded OS. It's essentially a bundle of IBM Windows with IBM PC-DOS and a custom shell that replaces Program-Manager (progman.exe is still there, I think).
While the underlying software can be found separately somewhere, it's simply an unusual combination.
Personally, I haven't heard of IBM Windows since the days of OS/2 and Win-OS/2 (modified Windows 3.1 that runs in an OS/2 VDM).

The C64 emulation that the Web.it ships with is from ca. the mid-90s, so it's understandably not quite as complete as VICE.
It's still not a bad version of an emulator, maybe. Not for it's time, I mean.

I remember seeing that emulator being sold (or being bundled with other software) in the mid-90s in a catalogue of a company called "Pearl Agency".
Pearl had sold all sorts of computer stuff and electronic gadgets. Also PC games and software for various purposes (big boxes, too).
They had a small emulation software area in the catalogue, as well. CCS64 or Personal C64 were being advertised in the 90s, I believe.

Jo22 wrote on 2024-05-28, 16:48:

Hi, I can be wrong but I vaguely remember that some individuals tried to translate a localized Web.it version of Windows back to […]
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BigDave wrote on 2024-05-28, 16:15:

Special is one word for it, but never realised it has a rare version of Windows, I'll have to try it out again. Mine is all boxed complete with manuals & BT click, so pretty rare here in the UK. It has some built-in Lotus office applications too, like 1-2-3 , not sure of versions. It's pretty neat, and specs quite useable, IIRC it's a 486 'Elan' CPU, and 8 or 16mb Ram., even a modem, it's just the C64 emulation was rubbish. I did get some games to run it, including the old AMOAD emulator disks (Arcade Machine on a Disk). Some time ago I was part of the C64 tape preservation project, made a lot of contributions, and at the time agreed to sell it to the website owner in Norway, but lost contact, shame. I can't remember, but think I got if from a TV shopping channel, called ' SHOP!'

Hi, I can be wrong but I vaguely remember that some individuals tried to translate a localized Web.it version of Windows back to English.
It was on another forum, the title of the thread was "EmbOS Translation" or similar.

EmbOS probably means Embedded OS. It's essentially a bundle of IBM Windows with IBM PC-DOS and a custom shell that replaces Program-Manager (progman.exe is still there, I think).
While the underlying software can be found separately somewhere, it's simply an unusual combination.
Personally, I haven't heard of IBM Windows since the days of OS/2 and Win-OS/2 (modified Windows 3.1 that runs in an OS/2 VDM).

The C64 emulation that the Web.it ships with is from ca. the mid-90s, so it's understandably not quite as complete as VICE.
It's still not a bad version of an emulator, maybe. Not for it's time, I mean.

I remember seeing that emulator being sold (or being bundled with other software) in the mid-90s in a catalogue of a company called "Pearl Agency".
Pearl had sold all sorts of computer stuff and electronic gadgets. Also PC games and software for various purposes (big boxes, too).
They had a small emulation software area in the catalogue, as well. CCS64 or Personal C64 were being advertised in the 90s, I believe.

I checked out the EmbOS translation project you mentioned, what amazing work. Seeing the images makes me want to get the Web.it unpacked and setup again to try it out, especially as like a C64, it can hook up to a TV. Doesn't sound a big deal nowadays, but when it came out, TV's were mostly CRT, and didn't have VGA.

I never realised at the time, but the way the desktop was divided up into menus with large icons, is a style that was copied or utilised for the Linux Xandros OS (see pic) that was used on some of the Netbooks that were popular for a time around 2010 or so.

The EmbOS project is great, but since I have an English Web.it, but it's an embedded system, do you have any idea how I'd possibly go about trying to extract the OS & applications so I could contribute to the project, or recreate in a virtual system? It sounds as if it's pretty unique IBM OS. I suppose this was used to lessen or avoid MS licensing fees?

Interesting story about the CCS64 emulator being sold, yes I remember it being sort of shareware, and when I say rubbish (sorry, that was pretty insulting) but only meant in retrospect compared to the almost perfect C64 emulation we have now on almost any deVICE. For it's time, CCS64 was quite advanced in it's hardware support, just disappointing game compatibility (maybe just unlucky in which games I tested, and all .d64, I don't think it supported the clean .tap files I was creating for the now defunct C64tapes.org project) but was considered one of the best at the time.

BigDave wrote on 2024-05-29, 06:25:

The EmbOS project is great, but since I have an English Web.it, but it's an embedded system, do you have any idea how
I'd possibly go about trying to extract the OS & applications so I could contribute to the project, or recreate in a virtual system?

Hi there, I'm sorry for the delay. I'm just here to give a quick answer to this one.
I suppose that if the OS is inside one of those DiskOnChip modules (DoC), it's best to boot the Web.It and use a DOS program on 3,5" floppy disk and just copy the files.

A null-mode cable can be used for file-transfer, for example. File Maven v3 or Norton Commander 5 have a link functionality, I believe.
It's just a general advice, though. I don't know so much about an actual Web.it, since I don't have one. 😅

Another idea is to use a Compact Flash adapter and a Compact Flash card.
The Web.it seems to have a PC Card or PCMCIA slot, after all.
Not sure about the card services, though. If they're installed on the Web.it, I mean.

But really, other users might have better experience here. Using a sector-based backup program would be cool, of course.
Though I'm not sure if the DiskOnChip module supports low-level access beyond BIOS access (int13h).
So backup programs may or may not work.

Anyway, IBM PC-DOS 7 itself is well known and available, so re-creating a boot sector is no problem.
So a normal, file-based backup will be fine, as well.

BigDave wrote on 2024-05-29, 06:25:

It sounds as if it's pretty unique IBM OS. I suppose this was used to lessen or avoid MS licensing fees?

Hi, yes, that might be possible. I vaguely remember IBM had access to Windows 3.x source code through a license agreement with MS.
It's a bit like that Philips/Nintendo deal of the 90s, I guess, when Philips had the rights to use video game characters.
But seeing a stand-alone version of IBM Windows 3.1 is something I hadn't expected back in the day.

Jo22 wrote on 2024-05-31, 06:50:

Hi there, I'm sorry for the delay. I'm just here to give a quick answer to this one. I suppose that if the OS is inside one of t […]
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BigDave wrote on 2024-05-29, 06:25:

The EmbOS project is great, but since I have an English Web.it, but it's an embedded system, do you have any idea how
I'd possibly go about trying to extract the OS & applications so I could contribute to the project, or recreate in a virtual system?

Hi there, I'm sorry for the delay. I'm just here to give a quick answer to this one.
I suppose that if the OS is inside one of those DiskOnChip modules (DoC), it's best to boot the Web.It and use a DOS program on 3,5" floppy disk and just copy the files.

A null-mode cable can be used for file-transfer, for example. File Maven v3 or Norton Commander 5 have a link functionality, I believe.
It's just a general advice, though. I don't know so much about an actual Web.it, since I don't have one. 😅

Another idea is to use a Compact Flash adapter and a Compact Flash card.
The Web.it seems to have a PC Card or PCMCIA slot, after all.
Not sure about the card services, though. If they're installed on the Web.it, I mean.

But really, other users might have better experience here. Using a sector-based backup program would be cool, of course.
Though I'm not sure if the DiskOnChip module supports low-level access beyond BIOS access (int13h).
So backup programs may or may not work.

Anyway, IBM PC-DOS 7 itself is well known and available, so re-creating a boot sector is no problem.
So a normal, file-based backup will be fine, as well.

BigDave wrote on 2024-05-29, 06:25:

It sounds as if it's pretty unique IBM OS. I suppose this was used to lessen or avoid MS licensing fees?

Hi, yes, that might be possible. I vaguely remember IBM had access to Windows 3.x source code through a license agreement with MS.
It's a bit like that Philips/Nintendo deal of the 90s, I guess, when Philips had the rights to use video game characters.
But seeing a stand-alone version of IBM Windows 3.1 is something I hadn't expected back in the day.

Thank you for all the information, that's very useful. I didn't think about using a CF card adapter, I'm sure I have one somewhere, so I'll give that a try. First job though, get it out my garage, and hope it still works 😉 I did pack it all back as new, and wrapped box in cling film to hopefully prevent damp & box damage issues.

Quick update. Lately, I've been tinkering with Win32s era applications on modern Windows.
It's astonishing how many of them could work simultaneously on both Windows 3.1+Win32s and Windows XI.

Quick update. And now some of the same Win32s compatible emulators on Windows 3.1+Win32s..
The colour issue is because of palette limitations. The application in foreground is responsible.
But that's okay, I guess, for an OS that's literally 30 years beyond.

Hi there ! Maybe you're like me and use WIN-OS/2 from time to time? Maybe to run some more heavy stuff ?
If so, you might be annoyed that Windows 3.x looks so out-of-place since OS/2 Warp ?

Ok, there's a fix for it. It's called "NICE-WIN".
It installs easily and replaces the Windows 3 icons by OS/2 Warp counterparts.

So far so good, but there's a minor issue.

It installs via load= option in win.ini, meaning that running Windows 3 applications from OS/2 directly conflicts here.
Since load= feature is used by OS/2 to load Windows programs without Program Manager.

As a workaround, the readme file gives advice:
"[..] To launch it also at the the startup of a seamless windows program you can
use the WINSTART.EXE from Sergey Posokhov that detects all programs in the
'load' line of WIN.INI and starts them.
Here is an Example for the system control:
- Make an OS/2 program object
- WINSTART.EXE as command
- CONTROL.EXE as parameter

So the WINSTART.EXE starts all programs in the 'load' line of WIN.INI inclusive
NICE-WIN and then CONTROL.EXE."

So what does this acually mean ? Well, I've taken a screenshot here.
It's essentially about making a special shortcut of winstart.exe (in C:\OS2\MDOS\WINOS folder) and use control.exe as parameter.
Control.exe is just a dummy more or less, so something starts up. As long as control.exe is running, winstart is also active, too.
If you now click on a WIN16 EXE file, it will have the OS/2 Warp window decoration being applied to it.

Anyway, this is no big deal. It's simply a nice little detail to make Windows look cleaner on OS/2.
OS/2 is handy because it allows direct hardware access, but also can run multiple Windows applications separately.
Especially in case of emulators which are very CPU taxing, this might be relevant.

Or maybe you love programming in Turbo Pascal for Windows or Visual Basic 3 ?
OS/2 can be a nice base for a retro development system..

Have fun! 😁

PS: I've read that as of OS/2 2.1x, OS/2 could provide up to 512MB of RAM to each DOS/16-Bit Windows application.
Windows 3.x on regular DOS basis could provide three time the physical RAM expansion, at best.
So OS/2 really is not a bad idea for a little workstation. Win-O/2 uses DPMI rather than himem.sys..

Who's who ?

Visual Basic on OS/2 Warp..

I forgot, next posts will be more about emulation again. I hope you don't mind this little excursus here.

I rarely post, but I enjoy this thread very much. That OS/2 and Win3.11 aesthetics are so nice to look at. You really have an eye for old software I wasn't aware of, and great screenshots! 😀

xcomcmdr wrote on 2024-08-20, 08:28:

I rarely post, but I enjoy this thread very much. That OS/2 and Win3.11 aesthetics are so nice to look at. You really have an eye for old software I wasn't aware of, and great screenshots! :)

Hi, glad to hear and thank you very very much! ^^
- I try my best to capture the, um, flair (?) of the era. 😅

What I like about OS/2 Warp is its power user personality and how it tries to co-exist with DOS and Windows.
Somehow, it reminds me a little bit of both Federation and the Borg from Star Trek.. :D

Btw, I also recommend having a quick look at this thread over here: Sega Documentary (1993)
The YT videos give an impression of how the workplace of video game developers used to look.

If you look closely, you can spot vintage PCs in background. AT class systems with (S)VGA, 5,25" floppy drives and Windows 3.x, I believe?
I wonder if OS/2 had been running there at some point, too. OS/2 2.x was already around, at least.

Earlier today I came across something a little amusing in issue 136 of Compute! magazine, where in the letters column they replied to one letter enquiring about emulation, that the PC wasn't suitable for it 🤣 ... I guess though, that not much was showing up on the bulletin boards that that particular "expert" was visiting, and also the general populace had only really just started getting 386 machines, still a lot of low end 286 and XT in use among the common man, who couldn't drop $2000 on a machine, or if they did a couple of years back, were gonna get 5 years dammit before they upgraded.

BitWrangler wrote on 2024-08-26, 00:42:

Earlier today I came across something a little amusing in issue 136 of Compute! magazine, where in the letters column they repli […]
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Earlier today I came across something a little amusing in issue 136 of Compute! magazine,
where in the letters column they replied to one letter enquiring about emulation, that the PC wasn't suitable for it 🤣 ...
I guess though, that not much was showing up on the bulletin boards that that particular "expert" was visiting,
and also the general populace had only really just started getting 386 machines, still a lot of low end 286 and XT in use among the common man,
who couldn't drop $2000 on a machine, or if they did a couple of years back, were gonna get 5 years dammit before they upgraded.

Hah, that's cool, thanks! 😁

I've just found the issue online and will have a look at it this afternoon.
So far, I can only say that I do agree with what you wrote.

PCs in general were seen as overpowered typewriters, maybe.
This slowly had changed with 386 machines and beloved 486 PCs, maybe.

That's when emulators on DOS and *nix started to take off, I suppose.
DOS and PC VMs maybe, too, thanks to V86 mode.

Edit: There was maybe one type of emulators that were used on IBM PCs in the 80s: CP/M emulators.
My dad used to be a fan of Z80MU, for example. Little did he knew that his beloved Public Domain tool was later turned into shareware.

Hi there! Just want to let you know that I'm still looking for further emulators.
However, I'm afraid that the internet might nolonger have much to offer in this regard.
That's why I do expand my search on physical media, which takes time.

Jo22 wrote on 2024-11-03, 13:02:

Hi there! Just want to let you know that I'm still looking for further emulators.
However, I'm afraid that the internet might nolonger have much to offer in this regard.
That's why I do expand my search on physical media, which takes time.

that's a good idea, the old internet is slowly fading away but maybe there are old cover disks/cds and the like which contain old treasures

gerry wrote on 2024-11-04, 10:29:

Jo22 wrote on 2024-11-03, 13:02:

Hi there! Just want to let you know that I'm still looking for further emulators.
However, I'm afraid that the internet might nolonger have much to offer in this regard.
That's why I do expand my search on physical media, which takes time.

that's a good idea, the old internet is slowly fading away but maybe there are old cover disks/cds and the like which contain old treasures

Hi gerry, thanks for the tip! 😃👍
I'm currently collecting emulator CDs, but cover disks of computer magazines might be worth a look, too!
I mean, there had been magazines for Atari ST and C64 in the mid-90s, still.
Not retro magazines, but a continuation of the classic magazines.
They may have collected emulators, too, at some point! 😃

Quick update. One of the CDs has arrived. I'll add a photo soon.