I'm rocking a Ryzen system right now, but I'm really rooting for Intel's foundry services. TSMC is too dangerous a single point of failure in the supply chain. I don't know when Taiwan is going to get the Hong Kong treatment, but no serious person thinks it won't happen, it's just a question of when and how. The last thing the worlds tech industry needs is TSMC getting nationalized by the CCP, and China stealing everyone's IP.

Namrok wrote on 2024-06-10, 19:34:

I'm rocking a Ryzen system right now, but I'm really rooting for Intel's foundry services. TSMC is too dangerous a single point of failure in the supply chain. I don't know when Taiwan is going to get the Hong Kong treatment, but no serious person thinks it won't happen, it's just a question of when and how. The last thing the worlds tech industry needs is TSMC getting nationalized by the CCP, and China stealing everyone's IP.

This is very true.
We need (more) western based foundries. I'm certainly no Intel fanboy, but I don't at all want them to fail.
AMD would be pretty quick to rest on their laurels given the chance.
Competition is good for the consumer, really all that is.
We REALLY don't want China in a position to hold all the leverage, at least no more than already.

swaaye wrote on 2024-06-10, 15:10:

It's kind of like we're back in 2005. I wonder if it will last. Actually I think in 2005 AMD had an even greater advantage.

Though yeah it is hard to come up with really valid reasons to need an upgrade these days.

The weakest part of AMD back then was their own foundry. Back then, practically nobody could compete with Intel advancements in lithography and AMD had really rough start with 65nm.

But well, Intel are not in a good spot for classical anti-competitive shenanigans, like it was in 2000s.

In 2-3 cpu and gpu generations AMD could be in a bind. Especially as it doesn't have the cash to take a bad round.

Epyc
- Once Intel has it's fabs up with the help of the Chips Act what follows will be pressure for US government agencies to use as much of home soil compute as possible and that leads to AWS/Azure adoption with ARM based options already available as well

Radeon
- Radeon group doesn't put out top rtx 508/90 and large data center equivalent contenders..maybe good for midtier gpu value battle but bad for shareholder confidence and brand recognition. Intel is also trying in the same space and gaining from behind.

- Xbox and Sony move away from AMD for their next generation possibly one going to ARM/Nvidia combo. They don't want to repeat the supply chain struggle of this gen

Ryzen
- Ryzen continues to do well but computer enthusiasts don't generate the bulk of profits and as you all say don't see the need to upgrade!

- If Intel and AMD are closely matched in the laptop space it will come down to brand relationships while ARM based options add pressure

Litigation, fab availablility and cost attrition will reduce the players down to a few heavyweights. Having big cash piles to survive is key

There is more to the supply chain that just having the buildings standing up. There have been fabs in the US forever. The snag affected more than getting the chips made. The problem is a matter of how business actually gets done got a major upset everywhere, and who knows if any big wigs will find the status quo acceptable anymore and not make a change.

And there is the issue of if they can get the buildings built. The word I'm getting on the ground, I'd be surprised there would be meaningful orders going into the new fabs by the end of the decade.

However, if people think AMD will suffer because they are now offshore with TSMC vs domestic producer Intel, well, I would assume AMD would move onshore as much as possible for US/Canada based business when capacity opens up on the nodes in production. But that assumes again the supply chain problem will get fixed. If it don't, then even Intel will get screwed a bit if it happens again. (Even Intel is kind of "off-shore")

I think as CPU/GPU chip producers, Intel and AMD are probably evenly matched for the next rounds of product releases. Not in technical specs, but just that each of their pros and cons will cancel each other out to that they will be moving closer in market share.

Hanamichi wrote on 2024-06-10, 23:25:

In 2-3 cpu and gpu generations AMD could be in a bind. Especially as it doesn't have the cash to take a bad round. […]
Show full quote

In 2-3 cpu and gpu generations AMD could be in a bind. Especially as it doesn't have the cash to take a bad round.

Epyc
- Once Intel has it's fabs up with the help of the Chips Act what follows will be pressure for US government agencies to use as much of home soil compute as possible and that leads to AWS/Azure adoption with ARM based options already available as well

Radeon
- Radeon group doesn't put out top rtx 508/90 and large data center equivalent contenders..maybe good for midtier gpu value battle but bad for shareholder confidence and brand recognition. Intel is also trying in the same space and gaining from behind.

- Xbox and Sony move away from AMD for their next generation possibly one going to ARM/Nvidia combo. They don't want to repeat the supply chain struggle of this gen

Ryzen
- Ryzen continues to do well but computer enthusiasts don't generate the bulk of profits and as you all say don't see the need to upgrade!

- If Intel and AMD are closely matched in the laptop space it will come down to brand relationships while ARM based options add pressure

Litigation, fab availablility and cost attrition will reduce the players down to a few heavyweights. Having big cash piles to survive is key

ARM is the future, there is a big push to get off of x86 and honestly I cant blame the industry for this push either, ARM is incredibly efficient and can scale well beyond x86 in a power envelope x86 simply cant match.

AMD has a lot of experience with ARM and are in the best position to pivot to it quickly if they need to, Intel will likely do what they do best and shove their collective heads into the sand and keep pushing their x86 shit uphill.

the3dfxdude wrote on 2024-06-10, 23:47:

There is more to the supply chain that just having the buildings standing up. There have been fabs in the US forever. The snag a […]
Show full quote

There is more to the supply chain that just having the buildings standing up. There have been fabs in the US forever. The snag affected more than getting the chips made. The problem is a matter of how business actually gets done got a major upset everywhere, and who knows if any big wigs will find the status quo acceptable anymore and not make a change.

And there is the issue of if they can get the buildings built. The word I'm getting on the ground, I'd be surprised there would be meaningful orders going into the new fabs by the end of the decade.

However, if people think AMD will suffer because they are now offshore with TSMC vs domestic producer Intel, well, I would assume AMD would move onshore as much as possible for US/Canada based business when capacity opens up on the nodes in production. But that assumes again the supply chain problem will get fixed. If it don't, then even Intel will get screwed a bit if it happens again. (Even Intel is kind of "off-shore")

I think as CPU/GPU chip producers, Intel and AMD are probably evenly matched for the next rounds of product releases. Not in technical specs, but just that each of their pros and cons will cancel each other out to that they will be moving closer in market share.

Someone here mentioned Taiwan getting invaded and the possibility of China grabbing the TSMC fabs ...Im guessing this person has no idea how incredibly unlikely that would be to happen, all of the machines TSMC has are controlled remotely from Europe where the fabricator is based, they hit one switch and the machines become paperweights. As for the IP I'm assuming anything valuable will have already been moved to the US TSMC fab and anything else will have been rigged with enough hi-explosives to render it nothing more than scrap.

The US wont allow China to grab the TSMC fabs should that situation look like its going to happen.

TSMC is too valuable for the US to not assist them in coming onshore and setting up more fabs.

The issue is that quality is controlled by MORE than just the tech. It's also the people, the work culture, and the 'know how'.

(Similar issues have stymied BOEING's attempts at moving fabrication to Mexico... Though at the current levels of 'nonquality', it might not matter anymore!)

They would need to mass-import a lot of personel to make this work.

Granted, this *IS* the *REAL* reason H1B visas are things, but good luck prying that many out of Silicon Valley's sweaty hands.

wierd_w wrote on 2024-06-11, 11:21:

The issue is that quality is controlled by MORE than just the tech. It's also the people, the work culture, and the 'know how'. […]
Show full quote

The issue is that quality is controlled by MORE than just the tech. It's also the people, the work culture, and the 'know how'.

(Similar issues have stymied BOEING's attempts at moving fabrication to Mexico... Though at the current levels of 'nonquality', it might not matter anymore!)

They would need to mass-import a lot of personel to make this work.

Granted, this *IS* the *REAL* reason H1B visas are things, but good luck prying that many out of Silicon Valley's sweaty hands.

TSMC is already shipping their techs and engineers to their Arizona Fab to assist in getting it tooled up and running quickly, they claim there is not enough skilled people in the US for them to poach.

The people pulling the strings will want TSMC up and running in the US ASAP so I have little doubt they will be getting all the funding and any other assistance they require to get their state side fabs running.

Was Intel ever really gone?
Most companies I support have intel only policy, even for workstation/server class machines.

Personally, I haven't purchased a new computer in years but I'm no power user.
Instead, I supply my family, friends and myself with work hand-me-downs

The company i work for is 100% home office and let us use whatever we want as long as the deadlines for the jobs are met, they dont care about what we use. They also offer a win 10 laptop, which I kindly refused.

The board of directors, nearly all of them use macs, except the CEO.

chinny22 wrote on 2024-06-11, 23:22:

Was Intel ever really gone? Most companies I support have intel only policy, even for workstation/server class machines. […]
Show full quote

Was Intel ever really gone?
Most companies I support have intel only policy, even for workstation/server class machines.

Personally, I haven't purchased a new computer in years but I'm no power user.
Instead, I supply my family, friends and myself with work hand-me-downs

Most of them are Intel only because of contracts they cant get out of, Intel is know for these shifty practises in tying corporations to their hardware via servicing contracts too good to refuse.

I personally switched to AMD for professional 3d scanning and CG.
The 3d cache makes for a nice boost in performance for those applications.

let's say i would like to update my i5-3450 to latest ryzen.
I just have to get:
- new board,
-new ram,
-new cpu
-new mounting kit for the cooler
right?

NO!

i also need to get:
-a scalping kit for the cpu and
-a few separate cpus in case i break them in the process, and no guarantee i will succeed anyway so let's not sell my i5 yet in case i have to go back

that company is a sick joke...

oh well, i will just wait for AM6
and if that one still requires scalping i will wait till AM7
That shouldn't take long?
right?
🤣 🤣 🤣

in case i succeed scalping, the board will allow me to repeat the scalping procedure in two years
and i already have the scalping kit
i will only need a few new cpus, and i can always stay with the old one if i fail
that's such a money saving
🤣 🤣 🤣

I've read through this entire thread and I feel like my IQ dropped by 20 points.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5W5hsSL9BM
"See, loser? You'd think for a hundred years and you wouldn't come up with it. See how stupid you are from all this reading..."
🤣 🤣 🤣

robertmo3 wrote on 2024-06-12, 06:22:

let's say i would like to update my i5-3450 to latest ryzen. I just have to get: - new board, -new ram, -new cpu -new mounting […]
Show full quote

let's say i would like to update my i5-3450 to latest ryzen.
I just have to get:
- new board,
-new ram,
-new cpu
-new mounting kit for the cooler
right?

NO!

i also need to get:
-a scalping kit for the cpu and
-a few separate cpus in case i break them in the process, and no guarantee i will succeed anyway so let's not sell my i5 yet in case i have to go back

that company is a sick joke...

I may regret it, but I'll bite.

I don't get the the point that you're trying to make.

Upgrading an i5-3450 to anything even moderately newer would require a new board, new CPU, new RAM and a new cooler mounting kit (or a new cooler) regardless of whether you were to go with AMD or Intel.

If by scalping you mean delidding, there is no necessity to do that for either Intel or AMD CPUs

Also, while I would not want to let things like facts and empirical evidence interfere in a debate,

I will add this.

https://gamersnexus.net/cpus/intel-problem-cp … wer-consumption.