gerwin wrote on 2024-03-28, 01:32:

I did some tests. With normal means I can run and play Dune2, with sound and music, from within Windows 98, with these condition […]
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I did some tests.
With normal means I can run and play Dune2, with sound and music, from within Windows 98, with these conditions:
- Set music to FM. Do not set it to Roland General Midi, for it will require even more base memory, and fail at startup.
- As I wrote earlier I do not use EMM386 here. Windows 98 can supply EMS without it anyways.
Then again I suspect you are using a SB-PCI or SB-Live PCI sound card, which requires EMM386 for its pure DOS driver, which then stays resident as well. Which.. sucks.
- The attached mem/c listing was actually insufficient. Successful Dune2 start was after I removed "doskey2" and "ctmouse" from autoexec.bat, and rebooted.

I also had another boot config with UMBPCI, which opens up a lot of possibilities for freeing base memory. But then there is no EMS in Windows 98. Maybe EMS can be enabled by combining UMBPCI with EMM386. But it is not easy to configure, from what I read here: https://www.mdgx.com/umb.htm

I'm running a dual sound card setup with a SB Live! Value for Windows games and General MIDI (and certain DOS games like Jazz Jackrabbit and Epic Pinball) and a SB Vibra16 for DOS and FM Synth stuff. I've been setting all the sound device stuff for Dune II to Sound Blaster Pro (there's no SB16 option), I made a bat file specifying the SET BLASTER value to use my SB16.

That really does suck about the Live!'s SB16 emulation requiring EMM386, but I made sure to load that into high memory in my config.sys, is that not really possible with that driver?

I'm pretty sure you're overthinking it.
You don't need to set all that stuff in the autoexec/configsys

You're running it in a semi-virtual-machine-dos window.
Windows does all the hardware BS and passes it on.
Just set the properties (which end up in a .pif file) and run.

It seems to me your AUTOEXEC.BAT and CONFIG.SYS -files take no effect at all.
I think you will have to reboot into MS-DOS mode for these to take the necessary effect, and thus free up conventional memory.

How do I boot into DOS mode in Windows 98?
Booting into a pure MS-DOS mode using Windows 95 or Windows 98
Click on the "Start" button on the taskbar.
Select "Shutdown"
Choose "Restart into MS-DOS mode". Now wait for the computer to restart

After you have restarted in MS-DOS mode, run the memory test again.
If you have freed up conventional memory, navigate into the Dune II folder and start the program from the command prompt.

OpenRift wrote on 2024-03-28, 04:33:

I'm running a dual sound card setup with a SB Live! Value for Windows games and General MIDI (and certain DOS games like Jazz Jackrabbit and Epic Pinball) and a SB Vibra16 for DOS and FM Synth stuff. I've been setting all the sound device stuff for Dune II to Sound Blaster Pro (there's no SB16 option), I made a bat file specifying the SET BLASTER value to use my SB16.

That really does suck about the Live!'s SB16 emulation requiring EMM386, but I made sure to load that into high memory in my config.sys, is that not really possible with that driver?

I kindly disagree with myne and hilram here.
Of course you could choose to run Dune2 in Pure DOS, with a suitable configuration, but that is not your question. It would be a different topic.

From your last message, it seems your SB Live! Pure DOS drivers are of no use to you. They may even be conflicting with that vibra card. So disable both the loading of EMM386 and SBEINIT, then see how that frees up some base memory in Windows.

The downside is that you won't have Midi in Pure DOS. ( unless you make a bootup menu, with different DOS startup options). But if you are serious about that, you should consider some actual midi and MPU-401 hardware.

gerwin wrote on 2024-03-28, 16:47:

I kindly disagree with myne and hilram here. Of course you could choose to run Dune2 in Pure DOS, with a suitable configuration […]
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OpenRift wrote on 2024-03-28, 04:33:

I'm running a dual sound card setup with a SB Live! Value for Windows games and General MIDI (and certain DOS games like Jazz Jackrabbit and Epic Pinball) and a SB Vibra16 for DOS and FM Synth stuff. I've been setting all the sound device stuff for Dune II to Sound Blaster Pro (there's no SB16 option), I made a bat file specifying the SET BLASTER value to use my SB16.

That really does suck about the Live!'s SB16 emulation requiring EMM386, but I made sure to load that into high memory in my config.sys, is that not really possible with that driver?

I kindly disagree with myne and hilram here.
Of course you could choose to run Dune2 in Pure DOS, with a suitable configuration, but that is not your question. It would be a different topic.

From your last message, it seems your SB Live! Pure DOS drivers are of no use to you. They may even be conflicting with that vibra card. So disable both the loading of EMM386 and SBEINIT, then see how that frees up some base memory in Windows.

The downside is that you won't have Midi in Pure DOS. ( unless you make a bootup menu, with different DOS startup options). But if you are serious about that, you should consider some actual midi and MPU-401 hardware.

I removed SBEINIT and EMM386 and it lets me run the game with OPL music and the closest I got was it saying "Dune" at the title screen (without the subtitle despite using the US version), and then no other digital sounds after that. I later found out that this was because I'd removed the SET BLASTER variable in my DUNE2.BAT and that was the only way that sound would even play. Re-adding the SET BLASTER variable would refuse to play any form of digital sound. This thing really is dragging its feet every inch of the way.

Also, by disabling SBEINIT and EMM386, Monster Bash is unable to play digitized sounds because of insufficient EMS memory.

OpenRift wrote on 2024-03-28, 19:35:

I removed SBEINIT and EMM386 and it lets me run the game with OPL music and the closest I got was it saying "Dune" at the title screen (without the subtitle despite using the US version), and then no other digital sounds after that. I later found out that this was because I'd removed the SET BLASTER variable in my DUNE2.BAT and that was the only way that sound would even play. Re-adding the SET BLASTER variable would refuse to play any form of digital sound. This thing really is dragging its feet every inch of the way.

Yeah, Dune 2 is the worst example of this, that I know. Requires high base mem and EMS, and starts dropping features silently when base mem is borderline.
I suppose in the past, the tech support just said: use a special boot disk before every start of the game.
At some point you can still give up and just run Dune Dynasty or OpenDune?

OpenRift wrote on 2024-03-28, 19:35:

Also, by disabling SBEINIT and EMM386, Monster Bash is unable to play digitized sounds because of insufficient EMS memory.

Is that in Windows 98? Maybe pre-set the EMS memory settings in a shortcut.

gerwin wrote on 2024-03-28, 19:58:

Yeah, Dune 2 is the worst example of this, that I know. Requires high base mem and EMS, and starts dropping features silently wh […]
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OpenRift wrote on 2024-03-28, 19:35:

I removed SBEINIT and EMM386 and it lets me run the game with OPL music and the closest I got was it saying "Dune" at the title screen (without the subtitle despite using the US version), and then no other digital sounds after that. I later found out that this was because I'd removed the SET BLASTER variable in my DUNE2.BAT and that was the only way that sound would even play. Re-adding the SET BLASTER variable would refuse to play any form of digital sound. This thing really is dragging its feet every inch of the way.

Yeah, Dune 2 is the worst example of this, that I know. Requires high base mem and EMS, and starts dropping features silently when base mem is borderline.
I suppose in the past, the tech support just said: use a special boot disk before every start of the game.
At some point you can still give up and just run Dune Dynasty or OpenDune?

OpenRift wrote on 2024-03-28, 19:35:

Also, by disabling SBEINIT and EMM386, Monster Bash is unable to play digitized sounds because of insufficient EMS memory.

Is that in Windows 98? Maybe pre-set the EMS memory settings in a shortcut.

Is there a version of OpenDune that runs in DOS or Win9x? The Github releases page says there's a Watcom C port of it for DOS, but I don't see it anywhere.

Also, yes I'm running Monster Bash in Win98, though if I'm giving up on OG DOS Dune II working, I might as well just re-enable EMM386 and such.

You shouldn't fill config.sys and autoexec.bat with DOS related stuff if you're not going to use a boot menu. If you're using the restart into DOS mode option, then modify that instead.

Some DOS games sometimes just can't be made to work as they should in Windows.

If you don’t load Emm386.exe then you probably won’t get DOS to run in high memory. So unloading that to free up conventional memory is not helping. We should instead look into why certain settings in config.sys doesn’t seem to take effect.

If the system respected the settings I provided, all of MS-DOS would load into high (XMS) memory. And memtest would show 2 MB of EMS memory.

Have you bothered to look at the button I said to click days ago?
Set the XMS to 1mb and conventional to 600.
You might need to re-run the setup to change the config

myne wrote on 2024-03-29, 02:20:

Have you bothered to look at the button I said to click days ago?
Set the XMS to 1mb and conventional to 600.
You might need to re-run the setup to change the config

That.... Somehow worked, what the fuck. I'd known about the shortcut properties stuff and tried it before to no avail, so I kind of just ignored your message.

Still, the problem of no EMS for other games still persists, because I had to disable EMM386 to even get the settings you suggested to work. Do you have any suggestion in that regard?

Same thing for the other games. Change their ems properties to something close to era hardware.

Windows does most of the work. You don't need autoexec/configsys settings.

Think of it like you would dosbox. A baby virtual machine.

myne wrote on 2024-03-29, 04:22:

Same thing for the other games. Change their ems properties to something close to era hardware.

Windows does most of the work. You don't need autoexec/configsys settings.

Think of it like you would dosbox. A baby virtual machine.

The thing is, when you disable EMM386 in the Config.sys, it prevents you from even adjusting the EMS memory in the shortcut options. It replaces the dropdown with "The computer is not configured for expanded memory in MS-DOS sessions." Clicking "Details" shows a pop-up that says "Third-party memory-management software has not been configured for expanded memory. Consult the product documentation for instructions on how to enable expanded memory."

In the testbox on a vm I used, the autoexec and configsys are blank.
The properties works.
Try it.

hilram wrote on 2024-03-29, 01:44:

If you don’t load Emm386.exe then you probably won’t get DOS to run in high memory. So unloading that to free up conventional memory is not helping.

DOS doesn't use EMM386 to load itself high. It doesn't use Upper memory (UMA), it uses High memory (HMA).

OpenRift wrote on 2024-03-29, 05:15:

The thing is, when you disable EMM386 in the Config.sys, it prevents you from even adjusting the EMS memory in the shortcut options. It replaces the dropdown with "The computer is not configured for expanded memory in MS-DOS sessions." Clicking "Details" shows a pop-up that says "Third-party memory-management software has not been configured for expanded memory. Consult the product documentation for instructions on how to enable expanded memory."

Probably because there are other lines in those files. As mentioned, you shouldn't really fill them if you simply intend to run DOS games in the Windows environment.

There isn't any upper memory available in any of the screenshots I've seen so far.

It might be something that can be solved with a simple addition of RAM parameter to EMM386.

DEVICE=C:\WINDOWS\EMM386.EXE RAM AUTO

myne wrote on 2024-03-29, 05:54:

In the testbox on a vm I used, the autoexec and configsys are blank.
The properties works.
Try it.

Just tried this, still the same issue.

dr_st wrote on 2024-03-29, 10:43:

There isn't any upper memory available in any of the screenshots I've seen so far.

It might be something that can be solved with a simple addition of RAM parameter to EMM386.

DEVICE=C:\WINDOWS\EMM386.EXE RAM AUTO

Tried this, just causes the Dune 2 shortcut to say there isn't enough conventional memory to run it as configured.

OpenRift wrote on 2024-03-29, 18:25:

myne wrote on 2024-03-29, 05:54:

In the testbox on a vm I used, the autoexec and configsys are blank.
The properties works.
Try it.

Just tried this, still the same issue.

What else have you changed?

Windows runs the memory. The dos window gets what windows gives it.
Default windows works.

myne wrote on 2024-03-30, 02:10:

What else have you changed? […]
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OpenRift wrote on 2024-03-29, 18:25:

myne wrote on 2024-03-29, 05:54:

In the testbox on a vm I used, the autoexec and configsys are blank.
The properties works.
Try it.

Just tried this, still the same issue.

What else have you changed?

Windows runs the memory. The dos window gets what windows gives it.
Default windows works.

I did exactly what you said, cleared out the autoexec.bat and config.sys. I didn't really change anything else.