rasz_pl wrote on 2024-02-09, 13:06:

weedeewee wrote on 2024-02-09, 12:24:

I guess the strict timings do not apply so much to the data transfer, given that fixel sees the possibility of doing diskimages over WIFI on his emulator. ?

you first program IDE device with what you want and either pool its status register or wait for interrupt, only then can the real transfer begin at sector/miltisector granularity. rp2040 would have no problem keeping up with at least UDMA33 for the data transfer part, at this point the limitation is sdcards tapping out at ~25MB/s https://github.com/juico/pico-sdio-example
Transfer of actual data will not be a problem for rp2040, its the command/status register access that worried me from the beginning, but since it can be slowed down all the way to 1us it should also be fine.

25MB/s sounds good enough together with UDMA33 for older systems.
When will you have a prototype ready ? 😉

weedeewee wrote on 2024-02-09, 12:24:

Bit bummed though about the zuluide seeming real, though not available and no github firmware page either.

afaik zuluscsi started out as straight closed source copy of bluescsi, but recently began sharing code. Its not vaporware, more like announcement, product is most likely in development. That picture shows fpga tho 😀 most likely Chinese one as I dont immediately recognize the logo.

Yep, too bad we can't read the chip ids off of the photo.
The fpga seems a bit small though, compared to the 3do one and sinowin/sintech one.

weedeewee wrote on 2024-02-09, 14:56:

25MB/s sounds good enough together with UDMA33 for older systems.

no no nooo, those are just theoretical maximum numbers 😀

weedeewee wrote on 2024-02-09, 14:56:

When will you have a prototype ready ? 😉

ask me in a year ;] Im currently busy with https://github.com/raszpl/FIC-486-GAC2-Cache-Module 😜

Yep, too bad we can't read the chip ids off of the photo.
The fpga seems a bit small though, compared to the 3do one and sinowin/sintech one.

I had a second look, its $5-8 ICE40UP5K-SG48I, 39 I/O, perfect for the task and locking down hardware making it hard to clone

rasz_pl wrote on 2024-02-09, 15:59:

weedeewee wrote on 2024-02-09, 14:56:

25MB/s sounds good enough together with UDMA33 for older systems.

no no nooo, those are just theoretical maximum numbers 😀

Well, theoretically already a bit adjusted numbers apparently. though I get what you mean.

weedeewee wrote on 2024-02-09, 14:56:

When will you have a prototype ready ? 😉

ask me in a year ;] Im currently busy with https://github.com/raszpl/FIC-486-GAC2-Cache-Module 😜

Interesting, the VLB connector is the same as the MCA connector according to https://www.eevblog.com/forum/vintage-computi … l-bus-standard/
And they still sell the connector on mouser (, for as long as stocks last). good to know. Now if one could find the pcb edge connector layout that would fit into that connector.

Yep, too bad we can't read the chip ids off of the photo.
The fpga seems a bit small though, compared to the 3do one and sinowin/sintech one.

I had a second look, its $5-8 ICE40UP5K-SG48I, 39 I/O, perfect for the task and locking down hardware making it hard to clone

They must have a reason beyond locking it down to use that part. Right?

ZuluIDE shows it is possible to get a working IDE device emulator built on a RP2040. But their was no real doubt about that. It seems to be a great product like ZuluSCSI is, but like ZuluSCISI does not have a CD-DA audio output. And the software supports only simple image formats, nothing like CloneCD or DAEMON Tools files formats.
For the speed. For a CD-ROM drive from the nineties, 600 KB/s is enough. And for a HDD, 10 MB/s is enough too. So if 25 MB/s is reachable, that would more more than needed.

If you want to go the hardware route and are looking for something available now, you can get a SCSI card and a ZuluSCSI or one of several other scsi emulator options.
Both tiny and ZuluSCSI can emulate multiple devices on the SCSI bus for you, and if you have a SCSI card with a boot rom, you can boot from it.

https://hackaday.io/project/18974-tiny-scsi-emulator
http://zuluscsi.com/

I can't vouch for either project as of yet, but I've got an adaptec PCI scsi card destined for my 486 and I intend to get one of the Zulus.

Oh no, if ZuluIDE software supports only simple image formats then it has no use for me. Besides , I think there was a free software iso mount solution for DOS already https://stickfreaks.com/software/dosisoify

The real benefit of having a cdrom ide emulator was to put bin and cue files or any other format that have audio tracks in it. That is one of the most important things that we want, to have an image of warcraft II or Command and conquer, or Red Alert, or any other DOS game CD that had audio tracks and being able to play it with music over the IDE emulator.

if they don´t provide that, i will have to wait forever.

wait but this one does mention cd with audio tracks, but as experimental

https://store.rabbitholecomputing.com/ZuluSCS … 2-rev-2023c.htm
https://github.com/ZuluSCSI/ZuluSCSI-firmware … /main/README.md

The .iso format for CD images only supports data track. For audio and mixed mode CDs, two files are needed: .bin with data and .cue with the list of tracks.

To use a BIN/CUE image with ZuluSCSI, name both files with the same part before the extension. For example CD3.bin and CD3.cue. The cue file contains the original file name, but it doesn't matter for ZuluSCSI.

BIN/CUE support is currently experimental. Supported track types are AUDIO, MODE1/2048 and MODE1/2352

does anyone have it?
I have never installed something that is SCSI on retro computers.

Datadrainer wrote on 2024-02-12, 20:52:

ZuluIDE shows it is possible to get a working IDE device emulator built on a RP2040.

they use FPGA, at that point you can use Arduino there instead of rp2040 and it would make little difference 😀

Datadrainer wrote on 2024-02-12, 20:52:

It seems to be a great product like ZuluSCSI

not a product, announcement

Datadrainer wrote on 2024-02-12, 20:52:

but like ZuluSCISI does not have a CD-DA audio output. And the software supports only simple image formats

We dont know what it will support when/if released. Lets wait and see. It has potential to delivering everything people want for $50

rasz_pl wrote on 2024-02-13, 07:34:

they use FPGA, at that point you can use Arduino there instead of rp2040 and it would make little difference :) […]
Show full quote

Datadrainer wrote on 2024-02-12, 20:52:

ZuluIDE shows it is possible to get a working IDE device emulator built on a RP2040.

they use FPGA, at that point you can use Arduino there instead of rp2040 and it would make little difference 😀

Datadrainer wrote on 2024-02-12, 20:52:

It seems to be a great product like ZuluSCSI

not a product, announcement

A product in the making if you prefer.

rasz_pl wrote on 2024-02-13, 07:34:

Datadrainer wrote on 2024-02-12, 20:52:

but like ZuluSCISI does not have a CD-DA audio output. And the software supports only simple image formats

We dont know what it will support when/if released. Lets wait and see. It has potential to delivering everything people want for $50

I don't see any audio output on the board. And it is stated that the firmware it is derived from SCSI2SD V6 and ZuluSCSI that does not support audio or anything like CDD/IMG/SUB or MDS/MDF.
But about the file formats, let's hope to see it one day as it is possible to make the code for it.

Imito wrote on 2024-02-13, 06:12:

wait but this one does mention cd with audio tracks, but as experimental […]
Show full quote

wait but this one does mention cd with audio tracks, but as experimental

https://store.rabbitholecomputing.com/ZuluSCS … 2-rev-2023c.htm
https://github.com/ZuluSCSI/ZuluSCSI-firmware … /main/README.md

The .iso format for CD images only supports data track. For audio and mixed mode CDs, two files are needed: .bin with data and .cue with the list of tracks.

To use a BIN/CUE image with ZuluSCSI, name both files with the same part before the extension. For example CD3.bin and CD3.cue. The cue file contains the original file name, but it doesn't matter for ZuluSCSI.

BIN/CUE support is currently experimental. Supported track types are AUDIO, MODE1/2048 and MODE1/2352

does anyone have it?
I have never installed something that is SCSI on retro computers.

Maybe this board can do audio output (J404?), but it is build on a GD32F2 MCU and the board is more expensive, because of the chip I suppose.
But something is being done about it and it's a very good thing 😀

EDIT (added):

Imito wrote on 2024-02-13, 06:01:

Oh no, if ZuluIDE software supports only simple image formats then it has no use for me. Besides , I think there was a free software iso mount solution for DOS already https://stickfreaks.com/software/dosisoify

The real benefit of having a cdrom ide emulator was to put bin and cue files or any other format that have audio tracks in it. That is one of the most important things that we want, to have an image of warcraft II or Command and conquer, or Red Alert, or any other DOS game CD that had audio tracks and being able to play it with music over the IDE emulator.

if they don´t provide that, i will have to wait forever.

I totally agree with you. For just the data part of CD-ROM, software solution exists that can do network or local image mount and works quite well. Consequently in its current state, there is a little use for such a device.

There is something extremely convenient about how the floppy Gotek works though. Being able to simply scroll through a screen with buttons or a rotary encoder which image you want the unit to mount isn't offered by ZuluSCSI or others. In fact it seems like, at least from my understanding, that what images you want the ZuluSCSI to mount are fixed and can't be changed while the machine is running.

megatog615 wrote on 2024-02-13, 19:19:

There is something extremely convenient about how the floppy Gotek works though. Being able to simply scroll through a screen with buttons or a rotary encoder which image you want the unit to mount isn't offered by ZuluSCSI or others. In fact it seems like, at least from my understanding, that what images you want the ZuluSCSI to mount are fixed and can't be changed while the machine is running.

If you search this thread for sinowin, the first post should be one with two videos showing off an IDE emulator, which allows you to choose which harddisk image or cdrom image gets mounted.
While very handy for cdrom images... This is a major annoyance when dealing with hard disk images while the system is running. 😀 before the system is booted changing the hard disk image is also fine but during is, argh.

edit: Re: Gotek like Optical Driver Emulator - Is it possible?
link added to save on searching. Post by Stiletto

edit2: It's a real device

Ah, well, while a full-fledged IDE emulator would be nice, I think a more focused device that just does CD emulation would be far better. For example, if it had the same controls as the floppy Gotek, you could have dedicated buttons or on-screen controls to eject the image or even select a different image and the unit would automatically send the eject command and mount a new image with an optional wait timer.

megatog615 wrote on 2024-02-13, 19:37:

Ah, well, while a full-fledged IDE emulator would be nice, I think a more focused device that just does CD emulation would be far better. For example, if it had the same controls as the floppy Gotek, you could have dedicated buttons or on-screen controls to eject the image or even select a different image and the unit would automatically send the eject command and mount a new image with an optional wait timer.

It's been a while since I watched the videos myself, but the device has three? buttons, add to that a DAC for audio and an oled display for human interfacing together with the buttons and changing the disk image is just like selecting the drive (in case you emulate 2 cd/dvd drives and selecting the disk image you want. All while the system is running.

megatog615 wrote on 2024-02-13, 19:37:

Ah, well, while a full-fledged IDE emulator would be nice, I think a more focused device that just does CD emulation would be far better. For example, if it had the same controls as the floppy Gotek, you could have dedicated buttons or on-screen controls to eject the image or even select a different image and the unit would automatically send the eject command and mount a new image with an optional wait timer.

I do not completely agree. A Gotek become not so great with a not too big library even with an OLED screen and a rotary encoder. It take time to find the good image sometime. But despite that, with a similar user interface (screen + 2 buttons + rotating selector) with the addition of a top level menu system to access quickly to things like mount/unmout/favorites, it could be totally usable. Things change though as recent versions of FlashFloppy allows to access images through the host, at least on Amiga for now [https://github.com/keirf/flashfloppy-osd] wish is an OSD using the Gotek connected to an STM32 board which is in turn connected to one video channel.
But in my opinion, and that's why I would prefer a RPi based solution is a user interface based on a front panel can be totally optional as Wi-Fi is integrated and a web UI can be used to do whatever you want through your smartphone for example. As it can list the images stored locally or to mount a network share and it can also have a search function. All of that allowing very fast access to any type of disc. And with the addition of a few electronics to plug a floppy ribbon cable (provided that there are enough GPIO channels remaining), I think it could also replace the need of a Gotek as it could manage floppy images too . An all-in-one disc emulator is for me it is the way to go.

I have sent an email to rabbitholecomputing

They were very kind and replied my email. I explained them the situation that we currently have, because none of the boards they sell have an audio out connector, in order to connect it to a soundblaster16 isa card, and be able to emulate a mixed mode CD images that contain a data track + audio tracks.

but seems none of their products have such functionality

I hope they develop in the near future something like it. I think they have complete knowledge to design something like it, they have many products and are on the right track, there is just one more step missing.

If i could find such board that can emulate mixed mode CDs, i would even buy many to give as a gift to all my retro pc friends in town

SETBLASTER wrote on 2024-02-17, 04:20:

I have sent an email to rabbitholecomputing […]
Show full quote

I have sent an email to rabbitholecomputing

They were very kind and replied my email. I explained them the situation that we currently have, because none of the boards they sell have an audio out connector, in order to connect it to a soundblaster16 isa card, and be able to emulate a mixed mode CD images that contain a data track + audio tracks.

but seems none of their products have such functionality

I hope they develop in the near future something like it. I think they have complete knowledge to design something like it, they have many products and are on the right track, there is just one more step missing.

If i could find such board that can emulate mixed mode CDs, i would even buy many to give as a gift to all my retro pc friends in town

I don't know if anyone else mentioned it, but a third party created an audio add-on board for the ZuluSCSI: https://68kmla.org/bb/index.php?threads/dac-a … si-audio.44480/

I wonder if this DAC would work with the IDE version of the emulator. I also wonder if the Zulu guys would ever consider modifying their design to add the audio functionality based on this add-on DAC.

fosterwj03 wrote on 2024-02-17, 15:18:

I don't know if anyone else mentioned it, but a third party created an audio add-on board for the ZuluSCSI: https://68kmla.org/bb/index.php?threads/dac-a … si-audio.44480/

I wonder if this DAC would work with the IDE version of the emulator. I also wonder if the Zulu guys would ever consider modifying their design to add the audio functionality based on this add-on DAC.

Huh, that link also mentions MacSD which is SCSI, has audio output, and works in a PC. It's also not terrible at $120.

https://macsd.com/

i could only find 1 comment from an owner regarding MacSD on a retro PC and the experience is that he had issues.

Does anyone else here owns a MacSD ?

I would like to read comments from an actual owner, that has tested it on a DOS 6.22 retro pc (like a 486) and that connected MacSD audio out to with a cable to a soundblaster 16 card, and tested it with mixed mode cd images (.bin and .cue) where the first track is data and the rest are audio tracks.

i could only find 1 comment from an owner regarding MacSD on a retro PC and the experience is that he had issues.

I sell MacSD. In 2022, Chrissy and retrobee reported some issues and they helped me to get those solved. I thank them for this. You can ask them about the state of the current firmware.

I would like to read comments from an actual owner, that has tested it on a DOS 6.22 retro pc (like a 486) and that connected MacSD audio out to with a cable to a soundblaster 16 card, and tested it with mixed mode cd images (.bin and .cue) where the first track is data and the rest are audio tracks.

I'll confirm that all of that works and more. I suggest you also connect it to the SB16 MIDI MPU-401 ouptut. Then you'll have a wavetable synth as well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hnwp2zYwQUo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u__3gp1V1JY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7a1ihn5H8U

The videos above were captured from a Gateway 2000 4SX-33 desktop with a POD83 CPU.
MacSD is also controlling its 80mm PWM fan based on CPU temperature.

YMK wrote on 2024-02-26, 08:05:

I'll confirm that all of that works and more. I suggest you also connect it to the SB16 MIDI MPU-401 ouptut. Then you'll have a wavetable synth as well:

Are you using a custom cable to connect to the wavetable headers on the card, or something routed over the joystick port? If the header, is it doing both the MIDI signal and audio to/from the sound card?

So redbook CD audio is working without issue? Are you able to boot the PCs off a SCSI HDD image and do CD emulation and all that all at once?