elszgensa wrote on 2024-02-15, 07:53:

AlessandroB wrote on 2024-02-15, 07:30:

I don't think [graphites] can run OSX

Think again. Officially they run up to Tiger, and apparently with some hacking also Leopard.

That sounds... scary. I've run Leopard on a 867GHz Titanium G4, which I think is right at the bottom of the system requirements. With the original hard disk and the original 256 megs of RAM, it was near unusable. With an SSD and the max RAM (a gig?I forget), it's passable, but not that great...

Tiger on high-RAM G4s is much, much, much faster. Not OS 9-level fast, but... very fast.

We've been spoiled in the past 10+ years; we forget what it's like using hardware that barely meets the system requirements.

Jo22 wrote on 2024-02-15, 03:58:

PS: There are of course als Tiger (10.4) fans out there.
Essentially, Tiger is to PPC users what Snow Leopard is to x86 Mac users.
They may still have an interest in 64-Bit G5 systems or running Classic Environment.

Tiger and Snow Leopard make sense as retro OS X versions in a way that, say, Leopard doesn't. Tiger has classic (although do you really need classic on a retro system that can boot OS 9?), much faster performance, and a certain degree of maturity. Snow Leopard is the last version with Rosetta and therefore the last Intel version able to look back on the PPC era. Plus I thiiiink every Intel machine can run Snow Leopard, including the early 32-bit ones.

But what's the argument for Leopard? Sure, it's the last PPC OS, but it's relatively slow on G4 hardware. The one notable benefit, but I'm not sure how much it matters for a retro system, is that there's much better software compatibility. e.g. to pick a bad example, VLC - Tiger gets 0.9.10, Leopard gets 2.0.10, Snow Leopard gets 2.2.8, and somehow the current version of VLC is still supported on Lion and newer. But again... what are you doing with VLC on a retro G4 that can't be done elsewhere or using 0.9.10? And I think a lot of people supported Leopard for a long time because they didn't want to completely leave PPC behind... but really, who wants to run ~2011-2012 software on a PPC...

VivienM wrote on 2024-02-15, 22:55:

I'm inclined to agree. For OS 9, I think the only option better than the 9000 is the Ti4600 which is insanely pricy now. That being said... as I said in this thread, I did get one, for too much money.

Part of me would love to upgrade to a Ti4600, problem is I'd be tempted to flash it to PC where I'd have loads more use for it.

chinny22 wrote on 2024-02-16, 00:11:

VivienM wrote on 2024-02-15, 22:55:

I'm inclined to agree. For OS 9, I think the only option better than the 9000 is the Ti4600 which is insanely pricy now. That being said... as I said in this thread, I did get one, for too much money.

Part of me would love to upgrade to a Ti4600, problem is I'd be tempted to flash it to PC where I'd have loads more use for it.

But that makes no sense...
1) The Apple Ti4600 card is way, way, way too long to fit in most standard PC cases. It's designed to fit in some extra mounting on the far side of the G4 board/case...
2) I don't know how much a PC Ti4600 card costs, but there is no way that this makes financial sense. I just went to eBay - sold Ti4600s for PC are in the $200-300CAD range. The Apple ones... are listed around $1000USD, or around $1300CAD, buy it now. They don't seem to sell at that price, but still... (the other thing I would note - one of the sellers selling them buy it now has a habit of buying items in auctions so that he can then resell them at his buy-it-now prices. I lost two NOS M7803 keyboards to him... though at least I am pleased I made him pay quite a bit for them, his margin was definitely a lot lower than if I hadn't been the second-highest bidder. If he does the same thing for Ti4600s, he could easily pick one up for $700USD in an auction and try to sell it for his $1000 rate.)

If anything, there's a business opportunity in doing the opposite. Buy a PC card for $200. Flash it to Mac (if you can). Sell it to someone who doesn't need the ADC port on the official Apple cards.

I agree with you 100%
it would be more like I buy the Mac 4600 install it and feel happy I've got the best of the best.
After a few months and after not playing with the mac for even longer I'd think hmmm I could use that card in another build.
I'd still hold onto it so I have the option to flash it back to mac, It's more about having such a useful card doing nothing for long periods of time.

Wouldn't be a problem if PC variants were cheaper but I couldn't even justify their price to myself.

VivienM wrote on 2024-02-15, 23:11:

Tiger and Snow Leopard make sense as retro OS X versions in a way that, say, Leopard doesn't. Tiger has classic (although do yo […]
Show full quote

Jo22 wrote on 2024-02-15, 03:58:

PS: There are of course als Tiger (10.4) fans out there.
Essentially, Tiger is to PPC users what Snow Leopard is to x86 Mac users.
They may still have an interest in 64-Bit G5 systems or running Classic Environment.

Tiger and Snow Leopard make sense as retro OS X versions in a way that, say, Leopard doesn't.
Tiger has classic (although do you really need classic on a retro system that can boot OS 9?), much faster performance, and a certain degree of maturity.
Snow Leopard is the last version with Rosetta and therefore the last Intel version able to look back on the PPC era.
Plus I thiiiink every Intel machine can run Snow Leopard, including the early 32-bit ones.

But what's the argument for Leopard? Sure, it's the last PPC OS, but it's relatively slow on G4 hardware.
The one notable benefit, but I'm not sure how much it matters for a retro system,
is that there's much better software compatibility. e.g. to pick a bad example, VLC - Tiger gets 0.9.10, Leopard gets 2.0.10, Snow Leopard gets 2.2.8,
and somehow the current version of VLC is still supported on Lion and newer.
But again... what are you doing with VLC on a retro G4 that can't be done elsewhere or using 0.9.10?
And I think a lot of people supported Leopard for a long time because they didn't want to completely leave PPC behind... but really, who wants to run ~2011-2012 software on a PPC...

I mostly agree with you, I think.

I suppose Leopard was essentially both the first and last power user OS for the Power Mac G5.
The only Apple OS that took full advantage of the G5 processor.

But at same time, Leopard had lacked Classic Environment, which like Rosetta was very important to the Mac diehards.

Classic (on Tiger) had allowed them to keep running them all their legacy stuff
(CodeWarrior, old productivity software etc), side by side with modern applications.

Almost 20 years worth of software, way down to 1984.

So yeah, it's a bit hard to understand which kind of user Leopard tried to serve.🤷‍♂️

If Leopard had Classic Environment, it would have been a true hit. 😃
Because, all the new graphics effects and new APIs were nice to have.
The 64-Bit Mac application support, too. - Tiger did merely support 64-Bit applications of unix type.

On the other hand, Tiger was really cheerful and easy to use. It was very lightweight, too.
But not a full unix system like Leopard was, I suppose.

All in all, it's a bit like the force vs the dark side of the force (star wars).

PS: I think there was a beta of Snow Leopard for G5 architecture. Some sort of developer preview..
Unfortunately, G5 support was being dropped before Snow Leopard got released.

Edit: About Classic vs real OS 9.:
I'm with you about being able running OS 9 natively, if possible.
Using it as an independent OS rather than some runtime is doing it justice.

For anything multimedia/gaming, native Mac OS 9 is a must (3D, audio processing, MIDI etc).
There, you have Voodoo 2, OpenGL, QuickDraw, QuickDraw 3D and QuickDraw 3D RAVE! 😁

On the other hand.. Classic Environment is nice to have as an optional compatibility layer for those two or three beloved applications.
As a gimmick, so to say. On an otherwise pure OS X Macintosh, with OS X software.
- Like "XP-Mode" was being used on Windows 7 back in the day. It was also very limited compared to real XP (2D, software rendering).

Personally, I once saw a dire need for Classic myself.
On my shortwave hobby computer, there's a WinRadio receiver with an USB/Serial interface.

https://winradio.com/home/macradio-g2.htm

The control software was being written in the 90s, for Windows 95 (Win32) and Mac OS 8/9 (native API).
There's no Cocoa version (OS X) or Carbon version (Mac OS/OS X).

Without Classic or Virtual PC (running Windows) or an Mac OS 8/9 emulator (in early development back then),
there wouldn't have been a way to use that device on a more modern Macintosh anymore.

Except by booting OS 9 directly, but that would mean that the ham radio software for OS X wouldn't be available same time.
Which would be sad, because the receiver's audio is being processed by these OS X applications (Cocoa Modem or Multimode; decoding RTTY, SSTV etc).

These are moments in which I wonder why Mac developers didn't use the Carbon library more often. 🙁
Especially towards the end of the 90s, when OS X was on horizon..

(Carbon is a subset of the old Mac API and Carbon applications can be run on Mac OS 8/9,
OS X on Power PC (any version, incl. Cheetah!) and on Leopard/Snow Leopard on Intel.)

That being said, these aren't exactly gaming related things.
It just came to mind.

In some cases, Classic won't do, also.

For example, if applications from the 80s want to talk to one of the internal serial ports.

In such a case, merely a native Mac OS with a real serial port will do.
The internal modem port can be routed to an external connector, for example.
See GeeThree Stealth Serial Port, Jamport G4 etc.

Edit: Edited. Formatting fixed (on PC).

I was given a G4 17” PowerBook, the one that does not boot to OS9. I have been using the Sheepshaver emulator in the meantime. When I was reading the Sheepshaver docs, if it is running on a PowerPC machine, the code is executed natively, gives it a huge speed boost. This might be enough for most people to experience the pre OSX world, it is for me. And it is all on one, admittedly large laptop.

Thanks for the useful replies all

I had a look at some of the machines mentioned here - I don't really want a laptop (old batteries, etc, and I have enough machines), and I had a look for a PowerPC mac mini but they are really expensive! Plus they don't natively run OS9 (although it seems like it's possible to get it running on some of these unofficially (https://mac-classic.com/articles/mac-os-9-on- … ported-systems/)

Seems like an iMac G4 is a good choice, they are quite cheaply available and the 15" ones have a 4:3 screen which feels more suitable for old games, and the earlier models (700mhz / 800mhz I believe) have native OS9 support. And they're more compact than having a powermac where I have to find a suitable monitor etc. The hardware isn't the fastest (GF 2 MX) but I think it will be ok just for my own curiosity purposes!

SBB wrote on 2024-02-16, 10:09:

Thanks for the useful replies all

I had a look at some of the machines mentioned here - I don't really want a laptop (old batteries, etc, and I have enough machines), and I had a look for a PowerPC mac mini but they are really expensive! Plus they don't natively run OS9 (although it seems like it's possible to get it running on some of these unofficially (https://mac-classic.com/articles/mac-os-9-on- … ported-systems/)

Seems like an iMac G4 is a good choice, they are quite cheaply available and the 15" ones have a 4:3 screen which feels more suitable for old games, and the earlier models (700mhz / 800mhz I believe) have native OS9 support. And they're more compact than having a powermac where I have to find a suitable monitor etc. The hardware isn't the fastest (GF 2 MX) but I think it will be ok just for my own curiosity purposes!

Strange - Mac mini's PPC costs $10-15 ever in Ukraine (not Mac country)
iMac's G4 usually get the mechanical or electrics caveats (old and yellowish lamps and so)

Beige G3, tower or desktop, macos 8.6, with good updates, you will enjoy gaming up to Quake 3

I recommend a PCI ATI with VGA output, much more easier than internal rgb output

Cheaper, all post beige, but in my opinion, horrible cases

About laptops, a Lombard or Pismo are beautiful, not super expensive, and have VGA out. In this case, there is white and steel G3/G4 that boot classic and are very powerful, like Powerbook Ti 800-1ghz