The Serpent Rider wrote on 2023-07-12, 14:42:

RetroGamer4Ever wrote on 2023-07-12, 13:56:

On the gaming audio side of things, the state of it all is pretty sad in Windows 10 and 11. Hardware-accelerated audio is available again and can be used, but there is no interest in doing so from Creative Labs or RealTek. AMD and Nvidia GPUs both have powerful DSP audio hardware that can be used for Aureal 3D/Sensaura/EAX/3D Audio-type effects and bring great audio to games, but nobody is interested in using it and Intel seems to have no interest in gaming audio, though their GPUs do have the hardware and software capabilities to utilize existing OpenCL audio stuff that has been around for some time.

Why would they? Windows environment had software sound only mentality for years. And game developers are not keen to jump into optional proprietary bandwagons with ASICs (AMD TrueAudio, etc), unless sponsored for that (Thief remake).

They don't have to deal with anything proprietary since Microsoft already has such capabilities baked into XAudio2/X3DAudio, as part of the Windows/Xbox gaming ecosystem. My point is that there are options for devs and gamers and nobody is using them.

RetroGamer4Ever wrote on 2023-07-12, 14:51:

My point is that there are options for devs and gamers and nobody is using them.

Too much energy consumption, too little profit.
No one will spend extra money to do it well.
Here is a modern implementation from Creative, and almost no one needs it.
https://youtu.be/qnOJYA5KuZA

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-07-12, 14:16:

RetroGamer4Ever wrote on 2023-07-12, 13:56:

On the gaming audio side of things, the state of it all is pretty sad in Windows 10 and 11. Hardware-accelerated audio is available again and can be used, but there is no interest in doing so from Creative Labs or RealTek.

Yeah, it sucks that there's been so little advancement in gaming audio during the last 10+ years. GPUs can now do 4K with Raytracing, but not much has changed in terms of game sound.

I recently replayed Quake 4 and got to experience the EAX5 Pure Path tech first hand on my 5.1 surround speakers. It's a pretty neat effect when you're dodging missiles which are falling all around you. Gives you the feeling that you're actually in the game world. Modern games rarely bother with that kind of stuff.

ah yes quake 4 support EAX 5 , it works perfect with dsoal sound wrapper in modern hardware + any soundcard btw

another game from such era is Doom 3 ,support EAX 4 but the sound is very buggy in EAX 4, it was implemented later in the patch 1.3 , so is prefereable to play this game without EAX or better yet play the DOOm 3 BFG edition which does not have EAX but there are lot of enhancements

RetroGamer4Ever wrote on 2023-07-12, 13:56:

On the gaming audio side of things, the state of it all is pretty sad in Windows 10 and 11. Hardware-accelerated audio is available again and can be used, but there is no interest in doing so from Creative Labs or RealTek. AMD and Nvidia GPUs both have powerful DSP audio hardware that can be used for Aureal 3D/Sensaura/EAX/3D Audio-type effects and bring great audio to games, but nobody is interested in using it and Intel seems to have no interest in gaming audio, though their GPUs do have the hardware and software capabilities to utilize existing OpenCL audio stuff that has been around for some time.

I recently looked into if there was a modern equivalent of Aureal 3D's wavetracing / Sensaura's Chaotic Waves and several solutions exist. The main ones seem to be Steam Audio, Microsoft's Project Acoustics, AMD's TrueAudio Next and NVIDIA's VRWorks Audio. All of these libraries offer GPU acceleration for audio processing.

I am unsure of how widely these libraries are used, however...

Laser wrote on 2023-07-12, 16:07:

ah yes quake 4 support EAX 5 , it works perfect with dsoal sound wrapper in modern hardware + any soundcard btw

another game from such era is Doom 3 ,support EAX 4 but the sound is very buggy in EAX 4, it was implemented later in the patch 1.3 , so is prefereable to play this game without EAX or better yet play the DOOm 3 BFG edition which does not have EAX but there are lot of enhancements

I don't think that the enhancements in the BFG edition of Doom 3 make the game better. The environmental lighting model was changed to the pre-baked one used in idTech 5, which I personally don't like as much as the original idTech 4 lighting in Doom 3. It's not what I'd call bad, but I find that I don't enjoy it as much as playing the original PC release.

MadMac_5 wrote on 2023-07-12, 21:37:

Laser wrote on 2023-07-12, 16:07:

ah yes quake 4 support EAX 5 , it works perfect with dsoal sound wrapper in modern hardware + any soundcard btw

another game from such era is Doom 3 ,support EAX 4 but the sound is very buggy in EAX 4, it was implemented later in the patch 1.3 , so is prefereable to play this game without EAX or better yet play the DOOm 3 BFG edition which does not have EAX but there are lot of enhancements

I don't think that the enhancements in the BFG edition of Doom 3 make the game better. The environmental lighting model was changed to the pre-baked one used in idTech 5, which I personally don't like as much as the original idTech 4 lighting in Doom 3. It's not what I'd call bad, but I find that I don't enjoy it as much as playing the original PC release.

ah it seems you are talking about that the original doom 3 is darkest and you have to use more the flashlight or you have to use the flashlight constantly
right?
This changed in the BFG edition of course

Laser wrote on 2023-07-12, 16:07:

another game from such era is Doom 3 ,support EAX 4 but the sound is very buggy in EAX 4, it was implemented later in the patch 1.3 , so is prefereable to play this game without EAX or better yet play the DOOm 3 BFG edition which does not have EAX but there are lot of enhancements

A while ago, I've played through the original Doom 3 on my WinXP rig with EAX enabled using an X-Fi card. Some time later, I also played a bit of the BFG edition, specifically the bonus campaign which is unique to that release. The absence of EAX made the BFG edition sound very flat, and it felt much less immersive to me. The sound positioning also wasn't as precise, compared to the original game.

As for the lighting, the BFG edition generally makes everything look a bit brighter and slightly different. Additionally, weapon flashes no longer illuminate the player's surroundings. Some of the character models have also been altered, and not in a good way. Lastly, there are other gameplay differences in the BFG edition, like having more ammo pickups available and making certain sections of the game easier.

tyrells wrote on 2023-07-12, 18:55:

I am unsure of how widely these libraries are used, however...

Not used at all.
To use this technology, you also need at least:
- one senior developer (8,000 USD per month without taxes),
- an advanced sound engineer (let it be 6),
- a pair of leveled designers (let's say 5 each) who will manually assign "material" attributes to each object to calculate absorption and reflection and sound sources.
- a pair of testers (2-3 each).
They must also not be deaf.
Also, everyone needs good headphones and a sound card, this is 1000 USD per workplace.
The sound engineer will have to record a lot of new samples in high quality, so that multiple sequential processing does not turn its into shit.
Total 30 plus taxes per month.
AAA title development - 3 years, i.е. 36 months.
Total 1 million USD without taxes.

What will we get for a conditional million?
Two youtube dudes in headphones for 20 pence from aliexpress will crap your game.
The end.

PS.
What will the user get for +10 bucks per game?
0.1% with normal headphones, a headphone amplifier and a sound card - they will say that this is amazing.
99.9% will listen to it on the built-in sound card, noisy from the movement of the mouse. In the headphones which left over from the previous phone.

They will whine "what the money is paid for" and hate you on the internet.
Now this is exactly the end.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-05-14, 09:47:

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-05-13, 08:59:

I first saw the WDM vs. VxD discrepancy in one of Phil's videos, where he makes a direct comparison between the two using NFS3. Can't remember in which video exactly he does that, but the difference is noticeable.

Found the video. It's in Phil's SBLive review, around the 7 minute mark.

He was actually testing NFS4: High Stakes, and not NFS3, though that game may have similar issues. You can clearly hear the incorrect EAX sounds with WDM drivers when the car goes through a tunnel.

Is it possible to bypass this issue with EAX 1.0 using WinXP + proper SB card, like using a wrapper or something like that? Is this only a problem in 1.0? or 2.0+ as well?

Best regards

xelizor wrote on 2023-07-13, 13:14:

Is it possible to bypass this issue with EAX 1.0 using WinXP + proper SB card, like using a wrapper or something like that? Is this only a problem in 1.0? or 2.0+ as well?

Best regards

Not sure, I've never played NFS4 under WinXP. Maybe someone else can help you with that. It should be noted that WinXP cannot use VxD drivers, only WDM.

And while I haven't tested NFS4 under WinXP, I did try Baldur's Gate 2. That game loses some occlusion effects when WDM drivers are used, and therefore sounds slightly worse under WinXP. It's not a huge deal, but those occlusion effects are kinda neat when enemies are off-screen or behind closed doors.

I tested NFS4 under Win98SE/SBLive! with VxD drivers and WinXP/SB X-Fi with WDM drivers (and modern patch to make the game work under XP) and I definitely did notice the difference, EAX effects were more spacious with the Win98SE system.

A little too much in fact, I personally actually prefer how the game sounds under WDM drivers even though it's probably functionally incorrect. I'm a bit sensitive to "too strong" audio effects, they can sound unnatural and overdone to me. So it might not always be a negative thing to run old games under WDM EAX, but this is of course game and personal preference dependant, very much a your mileage may vary situation.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-07-13, 13:27:

And while I haven't tested NFS4 under WinXP, I did try Baldur's Gate 2. That game loses some occlusion effects when WDM drivers are used, and therefore sounds slightly worse under WinXP. It's not a huge deal, but those occlusion effects are kinda neat when enemies are off-screen or behind closed doors.

So it happens in EAX2 as well, right?...

Sombrero wrote on 2023-07-13, 13:47:

I tested NFS4 under Win98SE/SBLive! with VxD drivers and WinXP/SB X-Fi with WDM drivers (and modern patch to make the game work under XP) and I definitely did notice the difference, EAX effects were more spacious with the Win98SE system.

I just tried NFS4 Modern Patch XP+Xfi... and I can hear the audio glitching just like Philscomputerlab's video. What driver version are you using?

Regards

xelizor wrote on 2023-07-13, 15:12:

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-07-13, 13:27:

And while I haven't tested NFS4 under WinXP, I did try Baldur's Gate 2. That game loses some occlusion effects when WDM drivers are used, and therefore sounds slightly worse under WinXP. It's not a huge deal, but those occlusion effects are kinda neat when enemies are off-screen or behind closed doors.

So it happens in EAX2 as well, right?...

The EAX version doesn't matter. It's an issue caused by the discrepancies between VxD and WDM drivers.

Just to clarify, I'm talking about real hardware. I don't know how wrappers handle this, as I have very little experience with those.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-07-13, 15:21:

xelizor wrote on 2023-07-13, 15:12:

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-07-13, 13:27:

And while I haven't tested NFS4 under WinXP, I did try Baldur's Gate 2. That game loses some occlusion effects when WDM drivers are used, and therefore sounds slightly worse under WinXP. It's not a huge deal, but those occlusion effects are kinda neat when enemies are off-screen or behind closed doors.

So it happens in EAX2 as well, right?...

The EAX version doesn't matter. It's an issue caused by the discrepancies between VxD and WDM drivers.

Just to clarify, I'm talking about real hardware. I don't know how wrappers handle this, as I have very little experience with those.

So everything from EAX1-4 will bug on WDM drivers? (and yes, I´m referring to compatible hardware as well...).

xelizor wrote on 2023-07-13, 15:27:

So everything from EAX1-5 will bug on WDM drivers? (and yes, I´m referring to compatible hardware as well...).

It depends on the game, and how it was coded.

Generally speaking, games made before 2001 were likely coded with Win98 in mind, and expect VxD drivers for EAX support. Some of those games (but not all) can be buggy when WDM drivers are used. NFS4 and Baldur's Gate 2 are two examples that I personally know of. There could be more, but it's probably not a widespread issue.

xelizor wrote on 2023-07-13, 15:12:

I just tried NFS4 Modern Patch XP+Xfi... and I can hear the audio glitching just like Philscomputerlab's video. What driver version are you using?

Seems to be 2.07.0003.2 from this driver cd.

I used those with a X-Fi XtremeMusic card and I did not experience that bug from the video. Though I used the roof cam instead of the in car cam in case that happens to change anything with the sound.

Edit: I just tried NFS4 with modern patch on a completely different system with X-Fi Titanium using 2.17.0008 driver and that audio bug didn't happen there either.

One question, if anyone knows - say you wanted to play Bioshock, Mass Effect, something that uses EAX5, would there be a difference in terms of EAX implementation XP vs Vista/Windows 7, since it would rely on OpenAL?

DrLucienSanchez wrote on 2023-07-27, 14:46:

One question, if anyone knows - say you wanted to play Bioshock, Mass Effect, something that uses EAX5, would there be a difference in terms of EAX implementation XP vs Vista/Windows 7, since it would rely on OpenAL?

Theoretically, OpenAL games should work and sound the same on Win7 and up. In practice, you need to check the PC Gaming Wiki and see if any sound issues are referenced there.

Specifically, Bioshock has missing sounds on Win8 and Win10, so you need to run it in WinXP compatibility mode on those operating systems.

Perfect, yes, I can't see any issues around Windows Vista or 7 mentioned on the Wiki, and would prefer to play with DX10 for Bioshock with EAX.

Same for Mass Effect, it runs stuttery in XP for me, smooth in Windows 7, so at least I can geta smooth experience with the bells and whistles EAX, then that's cool.

I agree with with your initial post regarding Baldur's Gate envorinmental sound being better in 98 with VXD drivers vs XP WDM drivers, which I use an Audigy 2 ZS for 98 but an X-Fi for my XP system (with many thanks for your guide), but curious to see if this can be restored to it's intended quality on XP via an X-Fi, but using indirectsound, something I will experiment with!