In the case of Sierra, I don't think they have a single O/S in mind. Games like Leisure Suit Larry 5 & 6, Hoyle Classic Card Games, and Freddy Pharkas Frontier Pharmacist all use a game engine called SCI or "Sierra Creative Interpreter". So you could make an executable for pretty much any O/S that can read the resource files and it should run correctly on the O/S on it's intended hardware(s).

Right, and that's basically what ScummVM is. But I know that the first version of SCI was built on DOS, and expect that the first SCI games were developed mainly on DOS computers on the DOS interpreter, and other platforms were supported by porting the interpreter over, and sometimes adapting the resource files (Police Quest 2 for the PC-98 has some wild differences). I'm just not sure how long that lasted.

My working theory is that everything up to SCI 2.0 (GK1, PQ4, and QFG4) were DOS-based, the SCI 2.1 games were Windows 3.x-based, and the SCI3 games were Windows 95-based. The last two parts don't have a ton of supporting evidence, but it makes for a neat categorization.

ddgAhab wrote on 2021-12-10, 11:24:

My working theory is that everything up to SCI 2.0 (GK1, PQ4, and QFG4) were DOS-based, the SCI 2.1 games were Windows 3.x-based, and the SCI3 games were Windows 95-based. The last two parts don't have a ton of supporting evidence, but it makes for a neat categorization.

A few years back, I reached an identical conclusion.

To my knowledge, SIERRA's first 640x480 (which I'll just call SVGA, even for MACINTOSH) title was LOST MIND OF DR. BRAIN, released July 1994. Not sure if that was an SCI title, but it never saw a DOS release. SIERRA instead released a WIN/MAC dual disc, which is a bit different, as those types of releases tend to involve games that utilized QUICKTIME, and I don't think DR. Brain 3 uses QT on either platform.

KQ7 and MOTHER GOOSE (SVGA ver) where subsequently released as WINDOWS only, taking us into early 1995. Space Quest 6 I believe was SIERRA's first SVGA DOS-compatible release (mid 1995), maybe the LSL6 SVGA re-release was before it.

Some SCI2.1 DOS requirements include DOS/4G and Video capability, which was already accomplished in some SCI2.0 titles. It seems what they wanted was SVGA, to the point they favored devoting resources towards the SVGA-ready MAC over DOS, at least for DR. BRAIN 3. Perhaps SIERRA did not have a solution to ensure that their customers could easily utilize VESA in 1994, which caused the development shift towards WINDOWS.

Concerning the SCI3.o titles, I recall seeing native WIN95 support listed as a feature to those games. If my memory is correct, most of the SCI3.0 games required PENTIUM, and were not released until after WIN95. Given the OS's popularity, I am guessing that SIERRA assessed that most people with machines powerful enough to run the SCI3.0 titles already had WIN95 anyway, so marketing them as primarily WIN95 titles made sense. But, to my knowledge, none utilize DIRECTDRAW/3D, perhaps only direct sound, so the difference between the WIN3.1 and WIN95 versions may be negligible.

In fact, I just learned the other day that EARTHSIEGE 2 can run on WINDOWS 3.1 (no DOS version)! I don't think that it even needs DIRECTX or WinG, so who knows how that thing is rendered!

ddgAhab wrote on 2021-12-09, 17:32:

What about Outpost? There's no DOS version, but it is a Mac/Windows release.

I forgot this one; It may be before Dr. Brain 3.

Is it an SVGA title?

ddgAhab wrote on 2021-12-09, 17:32:

Quest for Glory V is, I'm assuming, a Windows->Mac port, based on the dominance of Windows as a gaming platform.

Sometimes I look at games not as WINDOWS/MAC versions, but instead of what APIs render the game. For example, John Carmack stated in the late 90s that QUAKE 3's MAC and PC versions differed by only roughly 100,000 lines of code on account both utilizing OPENGL. I recall articles comparing the D3D version of UNREAL vs the 3DFX version. Both ran on WINDOWS and came on the same disc, but the Media talked about them as if two different games. Perhaps the 3DFX/WIN version of UNREAL shares more similarities with the 3DFX/MAC version than the D3D/WIN version.

For the pre-WIN95 era, while there was WinG, a lot of developers tended to use QUICKTIME to render their games, with MYST being surely the most famous example. Here is a thread when inquired on the topic:

Windows 3.1 / 9x games that require Quicktime

MYST's MAC released has been deemed superior to the WIN3.1/MPC version, but nevertheless, whenever I see a retro game that utilizes QUICKTIME, I wonder how much the MPC/MAC versions differ, and may favor the MAC version. They tended to be hybrid release CDs too, as if the real issue was playing the media off of the CD and running the codecs.

QFG5 is from a different time, and uses DIRECTX5; I am guessing DIRECT3d for graphics. I am not sure how the MAC version is rendered -- QUICKDRAW/RAVE, maybe? It does use QUICKTIME, but I think only to play movies. Odd enough, another SIERRA QT game, LIGHTHOUSE, was also dual release. If you look through the development teams, you may see some of the same names -- who pushed for a simultaneous MAC version and for QT to be used universally.

ddgAhab wrote on 2021-12-10, 11:24:

KQ7 and MOTHER GOOSE (SVGA ver) where subsequently released as WINDOWS only, taking us into early 1995. Space Quest 6 I believe was SIERRA's first SVGA DOS-compatible release (mid 1995), maybe the LSL6 SVGA re-release was before it.

Some SCI2.1 DOS requirements include DOS/4G and Video capability, which was already accomplished in some SCI2.0 titles. It seems what they wanted was SVGA, to the point they favored devoting resources towards the SVGA-ready MAC over DOS, at least for DR. BRAIN 3. Perhaps SIERRA did not have a solution to ensure that their customers could easily utilize VESA in 1994, which caused the development shift towards WINDOWS.

But, KQ7 was released for DOS and had 640x480 SVGA graphics. It ran in DOS4G if I recall. I can't think of any Sierra game post-KQ7 which also had a DOS version (executable) in addition to a Windows one. Later games, like Phantasmagoria were sadly Windows-only (no DOS executable provided).

KQ7 ver 2.0, a re-release, had the DOS installer (and I believe WIN95 support) as well.

The initial 1994 DOS release was WIN3.1 only. The OP identifies it as version 1.4.

I had a WIN3.1 only version. Worked fine on WIN95.

I just viewed a PDF of Phantasmagoria's manual, and it has DOS instillation instructions. There may be different releases for this one as well.

I believe that some of the SCI3.0 games even had DOS versions. RAMA and PHANTASMAGORIA 2 come to mind.

ddgAhab wrote on 2021-12-09, 17:32:

What was The Incredible Machine's original platform? Mobygames says the first release was on Mac in 1992, but also credits a "Mac programmer" and "Windows programmer" but no "DOS programmer," suggesting DOS is in fact the original version. Same question goes for TIM2.

You may be blending the various versions of TIM, which is definitely understandable, as SIERRA/DYNAMIX essentially re-released the game over and over.

First, as far as the 1993 original, according to Jeff Tunnell about 3min in this interview https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXb30FDJqB0, TIM1 was developed in 9 months for the PC, so DOS.

But I wrote that you may be confusing the versions as TIM1, to my knowledge, did not have a WINDOWS release - only DOS and MAC. EVEN MORE INCREDIBLE MACHINE may have had a WIN3.1 release.

TIM gets confusing on account of all of its variants; EVEN MORE INCREDIBLE MACHINE seems to be just the same game -- but with about twice as many levels -- perhaps a way to 'complete' the Game on account of the Original's short development time.

TIM2 was only released on DOS. I view TIM2 as a 'talkie' remaster of the floppy TIMs. This was common for SIERRA; KQ5, KQ6, SQ4, and WILLY BEAMISH are a small selection of games that received voice remasters.

TIM3 is an SVGA MAC/WIN port of TIM2. Incredible Machine Returns is still essentially the same game, soundtrack and all, just for WIN95.

But what I just wrote is an abridged version. Surely, a TIM fan on VOGONS can rip my comments to shreds, in particular on the different stages/puzzles between the versions. I have been wandering this myself, let alone how the variants (like the SEGA SATURN MAKAIMURA version) vary in regards to levels.

I am now curious if the SCI 3.0 games use DirectX at all. Looking at the system requirements of some SCI3 games, I see no mention of DirectX under WIN95 requirements, just demands for SVGA and a ‘Windows 95 compatible sound card’.

I know little about WINDOWS (let alone PC-DOS, MS-DOS, DR-DOS, ATARI GEM, OS/2, MAC OS, GNU, NT-based WINDOWS, DARWIN-based systems, SOLARIS, etc), but I know that the SIERRA WIN3.1 Installer (for SCI2.1) gives little options to the User. For example, in the DOS installer of some SCI2.1 games, I can select music to be played via MT-32, GM, SB, PAS, etc. For the WIN3.1 install, it just checks if MIDI functions, and to my knowledge, the Program talks to the MIDI MAPPER API.

Here is a thread where user Jo22 helped me configure MPU-401 use with WINDOWS MIDI:

KQ7, Phantasmagoria, Beast Within on win3.1 with mpu

My point is that an SCI 2.1 game on WIN3.1 just seems to talk to various libraries/APIs/drivers which are preset by the User via WINDOWS itself, not the installer.

Does anyone know which libraries/APIs/drivers (akin to MIDI MAPPER) these games utilize on their WIN3.1 versions? Playing .wav is also an important factor.

From there, I am wondering if the WIN95 versions then call the same libraries/APIs/drivers.

Latter SCI2.1 titles (and into SCI3 titles) like TORIN’S PASSAGE use CD audio. But suppose I have a program calling WINDOWS MIDI, on WIN95. According to this thread, MIDI MAPPER, and WIN MULTIMEDIA EXTENSIONS, in general seems to be legacy API, to be replaced by DirectMUSIC:

Default MIDI synth change in windows 95/98?

If these SCI3 games do in fact utilize legacy WIN3.1 APIs, then it appears that they are in fact WIN3.1 games, to which SIERRA just ensured that they would run on WINDOWS 95.

I found this comment on the SCIWiki: “The last version, SCI32 (3.000.000) could not only run under DOS or Windows 3.1, but also natively under Windows 95.” OK, I believe it, but the quote seems cyclic in citing itself on other sites.

Any thoughts?

Also, I may have been mistaken in LightHouse and QT; I have more to say on SIERRA MAC titles, but I’ll put that rant on hold.

smevans526 wrote on 2022-03-31, 20:59:

I forgot this one; It may be before Dr. Brain 3.
Is it an SVGA title?

It is.

smevans526 wrote on 2022-04-01, 01:22:

You may be blending the various versions of TIM, which is definitely understandable, as SIERRA/DYNAMIX essentially re-released the game over and over.

That's just what it says on Mobygames. It does not list any Windows version, but it does list a Windows programmer. So maybe the contributor got things mixed up with another version. In any event, the interview clears things up with TIM1.

smevans526 wrote on 2022-04-01, 01:22:

TIM2 was only released on DOS. I view TIM2 as a 'talkie' remaster of the floppy TIMs. This was common for SIERRA; KQ5, KQ6, SQ4, and WILLY BEAMISH are a small selection of games that received voice remasters.

TIM2 is a completely different game, actually, without any levels taken from the original game. However, there is a CD-ROM version of The Even More Incredible Machine with speech and redbook audio that is otherwise the same as the floppy disk version. I have it. And to make matters even more confusing, there's another, much more common CD-ROM version that has no differences whatsoever from the floppy disk version. I have that one too.

ddgAhab wrote on 2022-04-07, 16:23:

smevans526 wrote on 2022-04-01, 01:22:

You may be blending the various versions of TIM, which is definitely understandable, as SIERRA/DYNAMIX essentially re-released the game over and over.

That's just what it says on Mobygames. It does not list any Windows version, but it does list a Windows programmer. So maybe the contributor got things mixed up with another version. In any event, the interview clears things up with TIM1.

That comment concerned your inquiry into a MAC version of TIM2. However, I again may be mistaken; There is a dot of evidence of a MAC version. On YOUTUBE, VENGEFUL CHIP does have the OST playing through an emulated MAC. I did think that TIM2 recycled levels from TIM1, but I believe you in that none were reused.

Concerning your CD version of EVEN MORE IM, is that the one with the gear on it? I am wondering if its release had anything to do with the 3DO version. I will have to check if they use the same tracks and voice overs.

While the corrections come out, for those dying to know, MIXED-UP MOTHER GOOSE DELUXE was a WIN/MAC hybrid CD.

creepingnet wrote on 2021-12-09, 20:42:

In the case of Sierra, I don't think they have a single O/S in mind. Games like Leisure Suit Larry 5 & 6, Hoyle Classic Card Games, and Freddy Pharkas Frontier Pharmacist all use a game engine called SCI or "Sierra Creative Interpreter". So you could make an executable for pretty much any O/S that can read the resource files and it should run correctly on the O/S on it's intended hardware(s).

68k-mac or early ppc-mac? I don't think so. freesci should work on ppc/linux but does it work on very early mk-linux (apple) ?

by the way, the very early AGI mac-versions suffer from a never fixed quickdraw-bug. only larry1 2.0.6 was fixed for the color version. all others are broken when playing on a mac with 32bit quickdraw in Rom (mostly everything after MacII). B&W agi-versions were patched for 640x480 but they are also broken when using the mouse. If you stick to keyboard-input then you can play them. I will check these early sierra stuff on my IIgs and IIe (if there are ports available).

I am wondering if its release had anything to do with the 3DO version. I will have to check if they use the same tracks and voice overs.

IIRC, compared to TIMEM, 3DO has an intro movie and also has one extra music track (one Redbook track is missing from the Win version, possibly Rock #2).

smevans526 wrote on 2022-04-07, 21:49:

Concerning your CD version of EVEN MORE IM, is that the one with the gear on it?

Both CD-ROM versions have gears. The one with redbook and voices also have a lightbulb, while the one without has the K-A rating and the SierraOriginals logo.

I know definitive can be subjective, but a resource of what would be the definitive version of cross dos/windows games would be useful. Any such guides exist?

There are many versions of Sierra titles on CD. The 5-inch floppy version? It's on CD! The 3.5-inch floppy version? It's on CD! The CD packaged version? It's on CD! The patched version of the 5-inch floppy version? It's on CD!

Seriously, there were many releases of Sierra titles on CD, particularly in the early days of CD-ROM drives. I've found many OEM/bundle packaged CDs with different versions than what is on the Official Sierra CD collection titles. SQ4 for example, has a special talkie version with voice acting/narration that wasn't put on any of the SQ Collection offerings. (At least, as far as I know!)

Pretty much for Sierra games, the Windows versions are always inferior to the DOS versions if it's a DOS game that was then "ported" to Windows (era: 1991-1994/5). With some later games with FMV like Phantas, it might be that the videos are higher quality in the Windows versions. I believe that's the case. Could even apply to some late Quest titles. Of course, from 1995 on where a game was made for Windows, that's a different story.

As far as graphics and sound, the DOS versions are always better, with a possible exception of KQ6 which has the close talkie portraits in the Windows version.

Hi. Do you know whether the sierraw versions of eg QG4, GK or PQ4 do work in standard or enhanced mode in win31?

I am asking this because when they run in std mode only then could they possibly run on a 286 and could so pass the Dos4gw 386 req of msdos? Of course all with 4mb ram.

Thanks