I have a p1/200mmx setup with an agp Riva128ZX vga and I used to have a voodoo2 in it... I can recommend the Riva128ZX cards for their fast dos/2d performance and their VBE3.0 BIOS but when it comes to SVGA 3D games you need a beefier cpu. I can play Duke3D/Blood/Descent at 640x480 resolution without any issues but anything higher is just too taxing on the cpu.
The magic with the voodoo cards is that they are supported directly in some titles, no matter how much more advanced your "2D" card is it won't get used.
I don't see anything wrong in keeping the S540 card for 2D stuff since you say it's good and couple it with a voodoo1 or 2 accelerator 😀

Hm, are there really games where a card and CPU from the Windows 98 era is to slow for DOS games?

I think i would not go higher then 1280x960 even if my monitor can do 1600x1200.
I mean who had such high resolutions back then...
And i realized for example in "No One Lives Forever" that the fonts are really to small if i go 1600x1200.

You will find that pretty much all cards work well for DOS games. There are a few games that cause issues, but chances are you might not play them.

Matrox cards have excellent VGA signal quality, so many go with such a card. S3 has top compatibility, so many go with S3. I use old GeForce cards and I'm happy with that as well 😀

Hi Maulwurf,

i was looking at this chart: http://gona.mactar.hu/DOS_TESTS/
And looks like the Savage4 has greater compatibility then the Matrox.
Allot of red with the Matrox cards.

I see people doing Athlon XP or P4 systems.
Does this make sense? I mean the DOS games where made for 486/P1 or lower.

So the question still is: Is there a DOS game where Windows 98 hardware or Voodoo1 is to slow?

I have a machine with Savage 4 and Voodoo 1, works fine. In DOS you get the S3 compatibility, it's VESA 2.0 as well which is good. In Windows you get OKish DX performance from the Savage 4 and can use the Voodoo 1 for Glide games.

I found the signal quality of the Trio 64 & Virge cards to be poor, the Savage 4 is much better here too.

Thanks bjt,

i only need it for DOS cause the Windows games go to my Voodoo5 machine.
So looks like what i have here is ok for a DOS machine?

But i saw now this page: http://www.vogonswiki.com/index.php/3dfx
So maybe its a good idea to make also a DOS partition on my Windows 95/98 Voodoo5 machine and put the
DOS games after 1997 there?
It has a Sound Blaster Live! 5.1...

It's true that Voodoo 3/4/5 are excellent for the later DOS games. The SB Live is a poor choice for DOS though. I'd stick with an ISA sound card for DOS games.

@bjt, as i wrote i have a ISA Sound Blaster Pro 2.0 for this pure DOS machine that i want to build.
The SB Live is in the Voodoo5 machine.
Do the later DOS Games have problems with the SB Live?

BUT, it was a big mistake to register here.
I saw Mau1wurf1977 videos and now i want a Roland 😠
I came here just because of graphics card advice.

So it's getting more complicated cause a Roland MPU for 2 machines is out of reach and anyway the Voodoo5 machine has no ISA.

Nobody here with all the experience can tell me if a 233Mhz MMX and Voodoo1 is to slow?
Or for what games it is to slow?
Damn i also have a Voodoo3 laying around here, but building a fourth PC?

I haven't used an SB Live in DOS but I hear of various compatibility problems with them.

You wouldn't be the first one to catch the MIDI bug after reading Vogons 😀 I have an MT-32, CM-32L and a SC-55ST on top of my retro PC now. Before I read Vogons I didn't even know they existed. Ignorance is bliss 😀

In my opinion an AWE32 or 64 is a good, cheap substitute for most.

P233MMX with Voodoo1 will be fine for all the DOS 3dfx games, and for the very early Windows games, up to Quake II at a push. Q2 and anything later will benefit from a faster CPU.

Personally I think 2 machines will suffice - Socket 7 for <97 and PIII/Athlon for later.

I always recommend people to spend the $ on Roland. You play with it and then recover (most or more of your money) when you are done with it. 😀

You didn't know they existed and now you are the SoftMPU guy 😮
Yes, saw it and now i have even more questions - that are answered somewhere i guess.
But i already watched hours of Mau1wurf1977 videos and was reading hundreds of sides here.
So i hope its ok if i hijack my own thread for other questions too.

I decided to build another PC and now it looks like this:
-----------------------------
Voodoo-Princess
-----------------------------
Gigabyte GA-5AX
Intel MMX 233MHz
Diamond Savage4 Pro AGP
Diamond Voodoo 1

-----------------------------
Voodoo-Queen
-----------------------------
ASUS P3B-F 2xISA
1.4GHz Tualeron
Voodoo3 2000 AGP

-----------------------------
Voodoo-King
-----------------------------
ASUS TUSL2-C
1.4GHz Pentium III-S Tualatin
Voodoo 5500

The Tualatin was on my P3B-F but i don't want to run stuff out of specs anymore.
Now everything DOS goes to Princess and Queen.
The King has no ISA and looks like the 1.4GHz Tualeron is the fastest you
can get if you want 2x ISA. So the King is Win95/98 only.

And now here are my sound questions.
I have a Sound Blaster Pro 2 and i really want to use it.
Midi cards are hard to get and expensive and you only need them for games that don't work with UART.
So here comes SoftMPU into play.

But can you use "General Midi" with a SC-55 and SoftMPU?
Can you still use a game-pad/joystick on that port?
If not i need a second sound card with "GM daughter board" or SC-55 - right?

Then i was reading that "SoundBlaster 16" cards are not 100% "SoundBlaster Pro" compatible.
Also "SoundBlaster Pro" cards don't have the "SoundBlaster 16" standard - how does this effect games?
The 16 cards also don't have the Yamaha OPL3 - but i have a "Pro 2" and don't need to care about that?

Then there is this "hanging note bug". If i have a "Pro 2" do i need to care? I can use the "Pro 2"
for "digital sound effects" and the the SB16 for MIDI and don't have this bug?

Sorry if i don't get it all yet after all my reading.
But its all a little confusing and it looks people use different terms for the same thing.
So in games you have:
Sound Effects
Digital Sound
Musik

then there is:
Midi
General Midi
FM Synth (thats what the OPL3 is for?)
AdLib

So if i don't have a MPU-401 card, what sound card do i get best to complement my "Pro 2"
that has low noise (all no Yamaha OPL3 but my Pro 2 has?)?
SB 16 PRO CT2290 - Bug
CT1730, CT1740, CT1750, CT1770, AWE64 cards - no Bug

Sorry if questions are redundant or stuff is repeated unnecessarily, but i want to get it right.
Also sorry for spelling mistakes - I'm German.

EDIT
I found some Packard Bell card and it seems like thats a Aztech Sound Galaxy Pro 16 II (I38-MMSN822).
From looking around this cards have good sound (also with XR385/DB60XG) , low noise, OPL3, no bug
and 100% SB16 compatible? So better then any Creative SB16 card?

SoftMPU is a lot of fun and a great product. However: I personally enjoy hardware more than software. I also use 80286s and sometimes 8086s that do not support SoftMPU & playing games. Plus I have the luxury that I do not (have to) care about the $ involved (at this point in time).

SB16 & UART MPU & SC-7 / SC-55 / CM-300 / CM-500 is fine for the mid 1990s games that run GM / Sound Canvas MIDI.
SB16 & SoftMPU & MT-32 / MT-100 / CM-32L / CM-64 / CM-500 is fine for the late 1980s / early 1990s games that run LA MIDI.

No need to buy DBs and no hanging notes when you do SB16 UART. Intelligent MPU-401 (SoftMPU) is not a requirement for most games that support GM / Sound Canvas. That applies to LA MIDI.

Systems > Pentium 1 do not typically use MIDI anyway: by that time music and samples were already fully available on CD / DVD.

AdLib = OPL2 & OPL3 = FM Synth = music in games
MIDI = GM / GS / Sound Canvas / XG = music in games. (MIDI is also used for sound effects in old games).
sample playback (Sound Blaster / Roland RAP-10 / Pro Audio Spectrum and such) = sound effects in games.

SB = old standard for low quality mono sample playback (sound effects).
SB Pro / Pro 2 = older standard for higher quality stereo sample playback (sound effects). Always works in older games.
SB16 = newer standard for higher quality sample stereo playback (sound effects) Only works as SB (not Pro / Pro 2) or SB16 in newer games. Very often the sample quality is not SB16 anyway but one and the same for both.
AWE32/64: even newer standard but the GM / Sound Canvas / GS wavetables are very poor quality (IMO) and not very useful for gaming.

Sound Blaster information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_Blaster.
Roland Sound Canvas information (GM / GS): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_Sound_Canvas
Roland LA information (MT-32 and compatibles): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_MT-32

IMO: for the best gaming experience:
8086/80286 for late 1980s / very early 1990s: Roland MPU-401 with CM-32L
80386/80486 for later early 1990s: Roland MPU-401 with CM-32L & SC-55MKII
80586/Pentium for mid / late 1990s: SB16 & SC-55MKII
Pentium II / III / IV: I have no idea (I take no interest in this era)

MIDI = the interface from PC to synthesizer module (or card / daughterboard). General MIDI is a mapping of instrument samples. Roland (IMO) is the best quality wise. Other people prefer Yamaha / Korg or even others. General Sound is another MIDI mapping of instrument samples. XG is the Yamaha mapping of instrument samples. Consensus is that Roland is the best as it is the most common / expensive / collectible / sought after.

Have fun!

No need to buy DBs?
But only if you have a SC-55?

And your best gaming experience list has only CM-32L.
But if i watch Mau1wurf1977 videos he says you need the old MT-32 because of compatibility?

CM-32L = MT-32 with extra sound effects
MT-100 = MT-32 new version (with additional features)
CM-64 = CM-32L & CM-32P
CM-500 = CM-64 & CM-300
LAPC-I = CM-32L in ISA form factor & MPU-IPC-T (with MCB-1)

SCB-55 / SCD-15 = SC-55 in DB form factor.
SCB-7 / SCD-10 = SC-7 in DB form factor.
SCC-1 = SC-55 in ISA form factor & MPU-401AT without DB.
SCC-1A/B = SC-55MKII in ISA form factor & MPU-401AT without DB.
RAP-10 = SC-7 in ISA form factor & 16BIT digital audio & UART MPU-401.

Some games work best with old MT-32, some best with CM-32L but those differences are minor. MT-32 / MT-100 is very common and cheap. CM-64, CM-500, CM-32L and LAPC-I uncommon and expensive.

Most games use GM only. Few use extra sound samples found in GS. So a SC-7 / RAP-10 / SCD-10 / SCB-7 is fine in most cases. SC-55(MKII/ST)/CM-300/500 are GM & GS compatible. Very few games use GS.

Just to add to what Peter's already said, the hanging note bug only affects SB16s when used for both digital FX and MIDI out at the same time.

If you want a Creative card for both digital FX and MIDI out, your options are

a) An early SB16 with DSP 4.05 or earlier (these can be noisy though)
b) An AWE64 (these don't have real Yamaha FM)

As an alternative many recommend the Yamaha YMF71x cards which have real OPL, bug-free MIDI out and good SB Pro compatibility.

DSP revision is not always a way to tell. Please note that every user here on Vogons with a SB16 CT2230 have not noticed any hanging notes. Same goes for AWE32 CT2760.

I see. DSP 4.05 or earlier always means no hanging notes though, regardless of which card it is... right?

bjt wrote:

I see. DSP 4.05 or earlier always means no hanging notes though, regardless of which card it is... right?

Yes 😀

You can also use a MPU-401AT with the DB header. Or use another sound card than SB16 for DB header / SoftMPU with SB16 on I/O 300 and other card with DB header / SoftMPU on 330 (and disable other functionality). 🤣

Or just use a MIDI only card (intelligent or UART) and a SB16.

From page 365 in this PC Magazine from 1991 you can read up on early MIDI.
http://books.google.com/books?id=GF_6VuE4h2MC … %20card&f=false