spiffythedog wrote on 2022-10-20, 08:36:

jharrison wrote on 2022-10-12, 17:39:

I know one (small) example is Quest for Glory IV.

At the North side of the Mordavian village (the monastery scene), there is the gravedigger Igor carving a tombstone. His hammer strike sounds proper on a CM-32L, but on an MT-32, it's some other sound (I recall it's something like a horn or a brass instrument).

That particular sound effect is played through MIDI for whatever reason even if you're running the game with a separate PCM card.

Looks like you've uncovered something pretty interesting. Testing with MUNT and QFG4CD's MT-32 driver, I've found that the hammer strikes (sound resource 13, which uses the 'FireDartMS' patch when the MT-32 driver is selected) sound exactly the same regardless of the ROMs used. I've also found that the action is completely silent when GM is the selected music driver! This is because the developers only included resources for the FM and MT-32 versions of the sound. I'm guessing they forgot to include a GM equivalent or they were going to use a digital PCM sample like Spikey suggested but never implemented it (audio resource 900 is the only one I found that comes close to the required sound effect). It makes me wonder if there are similar cases of this happening with other sound effects in the game?

EDIT: More testing - looks like the floppy version doesn't contain this particular sound effect.

My understanding is that QFG4 is typical of the games of the era - some effort was made to map the sound effects and music for the MT-32, but it ends up as a mixed bag with lots of errors and sub-optimal outcomes. I have heard of this example before, though, so I'll have to check it out. 😀

EDIT: I just tested with the CD version, and with MT-32 ROM, CM-32L ROM (to confirm spiffy's findings), and it was exactly the same. Same for GM driver, and also for when PCM is enabled it's silent. So a very weird one. FireDartMS sounds awful and clearly the wrong sample (CstlGate or many others could have worked, maybe).

If jharrison can provide more information about their CM-32L claim, that'd be awesome, otherwise I'm chalking it up to a misunderstanding.

I wasn't claiming anything, merely speculating. 😅

Sorry, jharrison was the right username, not digger! My apologies. 😀

If jharrison can provide more information about their CM-32L claim, that'd be awesome, otherwise I'm chalking it up to a misunderstanding.

It's completely possible I'm mis-remembering the specifics of this. At the time I noticed this, I had both devices on a mixer where I could switch between them, and the CM-32L had a different and much more believable sound than the MT-32.

I notice in the install program, there are separate options for GM and MT-32/CM-32L and I don't recall which I used when I tested this.

Now you have me curious so I'm interested in getting this set up again...

the CM-32L had a different and much more believable sound than the MT-32.

The two devices should sound 99% the same on a non-MT-32 composed game. CM-32L has a theoretically lower noise floor and of course the additional sound effects over an original MT-32, but these differences won't amount to 'much more believable sound' or probably anything even noticeable, TBH.

Still curious for you to set it up and check it out, though. 😀

Dimitris1980 wrote on 2020-08-14, 11:48:

I would like to ask what extra effects has Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis with the Roland CM64 or CM32L.

I know this is a super old topic but thought maybe someone might enjoy this information.
I played through both the CD-ROM talkie and floppy versions of Indiana Jones an the Fate of Atlantis.
I used the MUNT console and it displays en error message when an unavailable sound is tried to be played back, here is the list I compiled:

When opening a door/panel/box but this sound only exists on General MIDI devices, unclear why they did this at all:
"Rhythm: Attempted to play unmapped key 58 (velocity 76)"

In the jungle area (near the start of the game) in the background ambient music, same as above, only exists for General MIDI devices:
"Rhythm: Attempted to play unmapped key 74 (velocity 114)"

During fights but this key is not held down long enough for the sound to be heard so it makes literally no difference:
"Rhythm: Attempted to play unmapped key 78 (velocity 64)"

This is the only legitimate sound I found, it is played when you "convince" Sophia to be a participant for the knives thrower, the audio is CM-32L crowd applause:
"Rhythm: Attempted to play unmapped key 82 (velocity 55)"

Note that I used Munt v1.5.0 because the console has been dropped from later precompiled Windows versions for reasons unknown to me.
I also own a real Roland MT-32 old revision and to me it sounds the same so I'd say with the exception of that single applause sound you aren't missing anything by using it for this great game 😀

I just wanted to pop in here and say that a casual browse of this thread sent me on a wild goose chase for an actual list of games that have extra\different effects when using a CM32L or CM64. I stumbled across a long-deleted wikipedia article with a proper list, but it is technically "gone". Thankfully I found it on vogonswiki here:
https://www.vogonswiki.com/index.php/List_of_ … _computer_games

The CM32L column apparently does specify games that have extra sound effects on those devices.

Also, one thing that kind of confuses me on the chart is the rightmost column is there to specify any non-MT-32 devices that a game is known to have been made for originally. So, how do we know which games on the list were originally made for the MT-32? Is it all of the ones with nothing in that column? Seems kind of odd to me.

Anyway, sorry for diverting the topic. I just found myself in here and figured that after *twenty years* this thread deserves to have an active link to a list that answers the OP's question. 😀

an in depth list would be great and especially in the vogonswiki list, it would be nice to explicity state that there are extra effects on CM32/64 (and bonus points for stating which effects). I can only say that Ultima Underworld has water effects on a CM32 😀

Dominus wrote on 2025-02-12, 09:40:

an in depth list would be great and especially in the vogonswiki list, it would be nice to explicity state that there are extra effects on CM32/64 (and bonus points for stating which effects). I can only say that Ultima Underworld has water effects on a CM32 😀

Yes, I think some of the information in the notes colum could probably be condensed a little to allow room for another column that specifies extra effects for CM series modules. Or it could be done with a separate chart based off of the first one. Not sure which is more appropriate.

Also, what is the point of games being listed with no MT-32 related columns filled? Does that mean that they have no support for the MT-32? If that's the case, why list them? There shouldn't really be any question about whether a game does or doesn't support it at this point 35-40 years later, so if no one adds it to the list of supported games then it doesn't need to be listed.

But, I think that list is really old and may be due for some revising or updating anyway. I am hardly an authority on this subject though. 😋

Ozzuneoj wrote on 2025-02-12, 09:32:

I just wanted to pop in here and say that a casual browse of this thread sent me on a wild goose chase for an actual list of gam […]
Show full quote

I just wanted to pop in here and say that a casual browse of this thread sent me on a wild goose chase for an actual list of games that have extra\different effects when using a CM32L or CM64. I stumbled across a long-deleted wikipedia article with a proper list, but it is technically "gone". Thankfully I found it on vogonswiki here:
https://www.vogonswiki.com/index.php/List_of_ … _computer_games

The CM32L column apparently does specify games that have extra sound effects on those devices.

Also, one thing that kind of confuses me on the chart is the rightmost column is there to specify any non-MT-32 devices that a game is known to have been made for originally. So, how do we know which games on the list were originally made for the MT-32? Is it all of the ones with nothing in that column? Seems kind of odd to me.

Anyway, sorry for diverting the topic. I just found myself in here and figured that after *twenty years* this thread deserves to have an active link to a list that answers the OP's question. 😀

The chart on the right should be relabelled to say "Original Synth (if not Roland MT-32)", or perhaps even "Synth Designed For (Blank = Roland MT-32)", or *something* like that. But yes, if it's blank, the implication is it's a MT-32 game. I agree, having it in the negative is needlessly confusing, as is the general way the chart is setup.

Yes, I think some of the information in the notes colum could probably be condensed a little to allow room for another column that specifies extra effects for CM series modules. Or it could be done with a separate chart based off of the first one. Not sure which is more appropriate.

Also, what is the point of games being listed with no MT-32 related columns filled? Does that mean that they have no support for the MT-32? If that's the case, why list them? There shouldn't really be any question about whether a game does or doesn't support it at this point 35-40 years later, so if no one adds it to the list of supported games then it doesn't need to be listed.

But, I think that list is really old and may be due for some revising or updating anyway. I am hardly an authority on this subject though. 😋

I don't think what the extra effects ARE is really that relevant, they're always going to be a subset of the 30 odd PCM effects that exist. Whether the game should be used with the CM or not is the key piece of data for most folks, what effects the games use is essentially an unrelated topic, footnote or external link at best.

As for no columns being filled, my *guess* is that no knowledge exists for which version of MT-32 is optimal to use, so what it's really (confusingly) saying is "Game is composed for the MT-32, and this is recommended, but it doesn't matter which one is used". My thoughts on the topic are that the whole "MT-32 old" and "MT-32 new" thing should be removed, and just asterisked or a box ticked for games that are known to need/perform more accurately with one or the other - same for games with polyphony dropouts. The key information that needs to be made clear is games that are recommended or not recommended for the device.
Possibly, the lists should be split into "MT-32 option and also composed for this (recommended option)" and "MT-32 option but originally composed for something else (not recommended)".
There's too much explanation for some things that don't matter, and not enough for some that do. The headers should be repeated after each alphabet letter or something as well, as it's ridiculous to scroll all the way to the top to find out what the confusing headings mean each time, and I'm borderline an expert on the subject!

There's some mistakes or misleading info in the chart, but mostly it's good, just horribly laid out. A couple examples are Leisure Suit Larry 5, which has "Yes" for both MT-32 old and CM series, those being mutually exclusive options in my view (game was composed using a CM-32L), and Zeliard (and all other Japanese games imported by Sierra), which has in the chart the game listed as composed for FM Synthesis on the Japanese PC-88 series, which is technically correct but also misleading since this is the Western port that does not have that version of the music (thus, irrelevant for making a decision about what music playback device to use), and the MT-32 version is in fact the optimal option in each case, as the FM versions are derived from the MT-32 composition/sequence, I believe in each of those games.

Still, the list is very useful, it should just be put into Excel and redone in a way that makes sense for most people, with the actual key information made obvious and "deep dive/nerdy" details kept optional in a sub or separate list, or asterisked so people can hunt for it if they desire etc.

Spikey wrote on 2025-02-13, 13:25:

The chart on the right should be relabelled to say "Original Synth (if not Roland MT-32)", or perhaps even "Synth Designed For ( […]
Show full quote

Ozzuneoj wrote on 2025-02-12, 09:32:

I just wanted to pop in here and say that a casual browse of this thread sent me on a wild goose chase for an actual list of gam […]
Show full quote

I just wanted to pop in here and say that a casual browse of this thread sent me on a wild goose chase for an actual list of games that have extra\different effects when using a CM32L or CM64. I stumbled across a long-deleted wikipedia article with a proper list, but it is technically "gone". Thankfully I found it on vogonswiki here:
https://www.vogonswiki.com/index.php/List_of_ … _computer_games

The CM32L column apparently does specify games that have extra sound effects on those devices.

Also, one thing that kind of confuses me on the chart is the rightmost column is there to specify any non-MT-32 devices that a game is known to have been made for originally. So, how do we know which games on the list were originally made for the MT-32? Is it all of the ones with nothing in that column? Seems kind of odd to me.

Anyway, sorry for diverting the topic. I just found myself in here and figured that after *twenty years* this thread deserves to have an active link to a list that answers the OP's question. 😀

The chart on the right should be relabelled to say "Original Synth (if not Roland MT-32)", or perhaps even "Synth Designed For (Blank = Roland MT-32)", or *something* like that. But yes, if it's blank, the implication is it's a MT-32 game. I agree, having it in the negative is needlessly confusing, as is the general way the chart is setup.

Yes, I think some of the information in the notes colum could probably be condensed a little to allow room for another column that specifies extra effects for CM series modules. Or it could be done with a separate chart based off of the first one. Not sure which is more appropriate.

Also, what is the point of games being listed with no MT-32 related columns filled? Does that mean that they have no support for the MT-32? If that's the case, why list them? There shouldn't really be any question about whether a game does or doesn't support it at this point 35-40 years later, so if no one adds it to the list of supported games then it doesn't need to be listed.

But, I think that list is really old and may be due for some revising or updating anyway. I am hardly an authority on this subject though. 😋

I don't think what the extra effects ARE is really that relevant, they're always going to be a subset of the 30 odd PCM effects that exist. Whether the game should be used with the CM or not is the key piece of data for most folks, what effects the games use is essentially an unrelated topic, footnote or external link at best.

As for no columns being filled, my *guess* is that no knowledge exists for which version of MT-32 is optimal to use, so what it's really (confusingly) saying is "Game is composed for the MT-32, and this is recommended, but it doesn't matter which one is used". My thoughts on the topic are that the whole "MT-32 old" and "MT-32 new" thing should be removed, and just asterisked or a box ticked for games that are known to need/perform more accurately with one or the other - same for games with polyphony dropouts. The key information that needs to be made clear is games that are recommended or not recommended for the device.
Possibly, the lists should be split into "MT-32 option and also composed for this (recommended option)" and "MT-32 option but originally composed for something else (not recommended)".
There's too much explanation for some things that don't matter, and not enough for some that do. The headers should be repeated after each alphabet letter or something as well, as it's ridiculous to scroll all the way to the top to find out what the confusing headings mean each time, and I'm borderline an expert on the subject!

There's some mistakes or misleading info in the chart, but mostly it's good, just horribly laid out. A couple examples are Leisure Suit Larry 5, which has "Yes" for both MT-32 old and CM series, those being mutually exclusive options in my view (game was composed using a CM-32L), and Zeliard (and all other Japanese games imported by Sierra), which has in the chart the game listed as composed for FM Synthesis on the Japanese PC-88 series, which is technically correct but also misleading since this is the Western port that does not have that version of the music (thus, irrelevant for making a decision about what music playback device to use), and the MT-32 version is in fact the optimal option in each case, as the FM versions are derived from the MT-32 composition/sequence, I believe in each of those games.

Still, the list is very useful, it should just be put into Excel and redone in a way that makes sense for most people, with the actual key information made obvious and "deep dive/nerdy" details kept optional in a sub or separate list, or asterisked so people can hunt for it if they desire etc.

I agree with all of this. Maybe a Google Docs spreadsheet would be the best place for a chart with this much information.

I really like the idea of changing the focus of the chart to "What is recommended?" rather than "yes salad".

Is there a list aside from the Vogons MT-32 games compatibility list which has details about if a game only offers music and no sound effects or if it also has sound effects? I just got my McCake and tried some games and I learned that some games simply offer music. I think Civilization, Monkey Island and Zool have that. Then there are games like Gods which has sound effects. And then there are games like Cannon Fodder or Dune 2 (patched) where you can select Soundblaster + MT32 for sound + music combinaton.

A list for that would be awesome. For me, I would always prefer the option that can play sound effects, even if the music is very good. For me, it reduces the immersion when the sound is missing.