Thank you very much, really informative posts, that's the complete photo I wanted to know.
Bruno128 wrote on 2025-01-27, 11:55:Trashbytes wrote on 2025-01-27, 10:35:what you are trying to argue here
That if your starting point is emulating eax and whatnot you may as well go with modern hardware it won’t matter. There is Alchemy and dsoal and whatnot. It’s not like you can trick the system by buying 8738 (literally the cheapest option) and claim “hardware a3d” it doesn’t work like that, you do have to pay insane eBay prices for vortex 2 for it to count as hardware a3d. If it doesn’t fit sff case well tough luck.
Its not the cheapest option its the only option, as I said there are ZERO PCIe A3D 2.0 capable cards. So if the CMI card can handle A3D 1.0 and EAX 1/2 then great Ill take what it can give me and be happy with it, EAX Emulation can fill the gaps for 3/4 and yeah itll be hit and miss but well that's still better than just AC97 on board sound.
Another point is A3D cards don't work under XP, so even if one did exist in a format we could use it would still be useless for this project.
You should really read the entire thread, you might have some idea what is being attempted and have a better understanding of why the CMI card was even bought up.
mgtroyas wrote on 2025-01-27, 19:47:Thank you very much, really informative posts, that's the complete photo I wanted to know.
Let us know how that card goes, I have one on the way but I did notice there might be a few versions of it, the one I got comes with a driver CD and lists A3D 1.0, EAX, DS3D and HRTF as supported, and yeah EAX 3 at a guess will have to be done via DSOAL. (HRTF is interesting as its regarded as a spiritual successor to A3D, I think the only part not replaced yet from A3D 2.0 is Wavetracing)
No idea how good the support is but it should be fun to find out.
Well, I'll hold on buying the C-Media card for now, as I remembered something I tested many moons ago... on some iteration of this research, my past me bought an Asus Xonar U3 external USB soundcard because it offered Dolby Headphones support, and back then I was starting to learn about surround sound on, I assume, Windows 10, testing yamagi Q2 5.1 surround, etc. But reading about it now again this card offer more than that.
You can read in the manual that it supports "EAX® 2.0&1.0, A3D® 1.0, DirectSound® HW & SW, OpenAL generic modes" (and "Xear 3D™ Virtual Speaker Shifter" and other DSP modes I won't analyze here as only work on Windows Vista onwards). BTW, this card has Windows XP drivers! that, although marked as beta, seem to work without problems. The curious thing is, back in the day, marketing and reviews mentioned up to EAX 5.0 support...
So I started testing it with RightMark 3D Sound. In the System menu you can see "Direct3D Software", "Direct3D Hardware" and "DirectSound3D + EAX 2" selectable, and in fact working, oclussions and everything, but "Direct3D + EAX3" and "Direct3D + EAX4 Advanced HD" are greyed out. This matches with what Joseph_Joestar predicted about the C-Media card.
I went ahead and looked for EAX 3/4 only games on the lists. LOTR Battle for Middle Earth failed to enable EAX3 both with DSOAL or the plain ASUS... Arma Resistance / Cold War Attack allowed to enable EAX4 on both situations (too easy¿?)... same with Soldier of Fortune II, and The Witcher... finally Colin McRae Rally 04 seemed to notice the difference: it allows enabling EAX 4 with DSOAL but doesn't with plain Asus drivers. So at least EAX4 non-OpenAL is not supported and still need DSOAL.... but then why marketing said it supported EAX 5.0?
So if you read the manual further you find this...
DS3D GX2.5 and DSP Modes
Xonar U3 is introducing an innovative technology –DirectSound 3D Game Extensions v2.5 (DG3D GX2.5)- to restore DirectSound 3D Hardware acceleration mode and its subsidiary EAX effects on Windows 7/Vista for 3D games. Unlike some proprietary API like OpenAL, DG3D GX doesn’t require games to support OpenAL API. All existing games compatible with Microsoft DirectX and DirectSound 2D/3D will be supported with DG3D GX technology. Before you start EAX and DG3D HW games, please enable DG3D GX on the Xonar U3 audio center, and disable the function after the games.
I went ahead, clicked the "GX" button in the DSP part of the Asus software, relaunched Colin McRae 04 and... nope, EAX 4 still wasn't available. I haven't yet tested on Windows 7, but this seems to be an ASUS propietary alternative to Alchemy without needing a Creative card but their own card.
I also tested Doom 3 (latest patch) and Quake 4 which use "OpenAL EAX Enhanced Audio HD" and they sounded beautifully, so probably will do all the games that give EAX 4 and 5 through OpenAL.
Comparing this ASUS with the integrated Realtek:
- The Realtek says to support "Direct3D Software" and "Direct3D Hardware" on RightMark 3D Sound, but when choosing "Direct3D Hardware" the program crashes, so I'm not so sure. The ASUS does work, and the difference is that when the sound position rotates constantly (one of the test buttons in RightMark 3D Sound), in Software there the sound crackles slightly continuously, but in Hardware the sound is clear.
- Also the Realtek says to support EAX 2, but when I select it on RightMark 3D Sound there's no reverb effect, and placing occlusions doesn't make any effect either. The ASUS implements those effects without issues.
The ASUS is indeed a good card: has a low noise output, SPDIF output option, Dolby Headphone for 2D games, Dolby Digital Life, Dolby Prologic IIx and 7.1 virtualizer for SPDIF output to external decoder, and many other bells and whistles. For what matters us, 3D gaming sound on Windows XP, I have found some advantages over even DSOAL-XP:
- With DSOAL-XP I had problems sometimes of center and back sounds playing very low volume, perhaps related with the type of speakers selected on Windows Control Panel (stereo or 7.1) as they would even dissapear completely, but on the ASUS the 3D sound positioning sounds very good (still voices are lower just in front of you that just a little to a side).
- With DSOAL-XP sometimes sounds are not attenuated at all, for instance in Jedi Knight 2 the blips from robots are audible all over the level, instead of only when you're near them, that drove me crazy. Something similar happens on Doom 3 and Prey, fluorescent tubes emit a very loud sound and it doesn't lower when you go away of them, I had to set "[reverb] boost=-6" on alsoft.ini to make them bearable. With the ASUS these sounds seem so far to be attenuated as expected.
Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2025-01-25, 19:35:I think that some X-Fi SB0730 cards come with a low profile bracket.
That model is called "XtremeGamer" and it should be pretty decent for WinXP and Win7 gaming. As far as I can tell, it's basically a shrunken down SB0460.
In order to experience the real "EAX experience" I decided to try this, so I needed a PCI port on my PC. I first evaluated switching my Optiplex 7010 SFF for a 7010 DT, I realized it meant not only some extra horizontal space, but also an increase on depth, and my corner on the desktop is not giant. The Optiplex were not so popular here, looking for other options I saw the 4300 Pro / 6300 Pro / Elite 8300, that are the HP equivalents to the 7010, and found out they are more common on my local listings. Also less deeper. At the end I found a good condition Elite 8300 even with 4GB of RAM, 500GB HDD (both not needed) and i5-3570 CPU (an upgrade over my current i3, although it also means more power consumption), listed for 20€, I could pick up in person, so there I were.
I also found listed the X-Fi XtremeGamer, so after some driver installing, details fixing and DSOAL-XP mass deleting (I realized I had it applied to more than 100 games), everything is working, and I'm really pleased. First the cons:
Now the pros:
So to sum up, I'm very happy to have found a way to put a X-Fi card on my SFF gaming PC. Now I have an excuse to revisit hundreds of games with great sound, I never got to experience back in the day.
mgtroyas wrote on 2025-02-06, 16:18:The card is low profile, but comes without a low profile bracket, perhaps it didn't even have it in the box. I suspect other models had it, anyway I couldn't find any for sale.
They do exist, and there are a few on eBay. This one for example (though it's out of stock).
It interferes with the integrated ethernet network card
Not sure what's going on there, possibly a resource conflict? I vaguely recall some on-board devices sharing IRQs and such with certain PCI slots, but that was more of an issue during the early 2000s.
So to sum up, I'm very happy to have found a way to put a X-Fi card on my SFF gaming PC. Now I have an excuse to revisit hundreds of games with great sound, I never got to experience back in the day.
Glad you're enjoying it! I was in the same boat until five or six years ago, as I had only used on-board audio during the mid 2000s. And yeah, it's definitively worth replaying some of the old classics with EAX support. Feel free to drop by the EAX appreciation thread to share your experiences. 😀
Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2025-02-06, 16:29:mgtroyas wrote on 2025-02-06, 16:18:The card is low profile, but comes without a low profile bracket, perhaps it didn't even have it in the box. I suspect other models had it, anyway I couldn't find any for sale.
They do exist, and there are a few on eBay. This one for example (though it's out of stock).
Thank you, I hadn't found any. I've found the same bracket but for older cards, like the Audigy, I'd bet all the holes will match but the last off-centered one, and perhaps that connector can bend down that little. I've ordered one to find out.
Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2025-02-06, 16:29:mgtroyas wrote on 2025-02-06, 16:18:It interferes with the integrated ethernet network card
Not sure what's going on there, possibly a resource conflict? I vaguely recall some on-board devices sharing IRQs and such with certain PCI slots, but that was more of an issue during the early 2000s.
If it's the same issue then they still didn't take care of it on 2013 when they designed the 8300, and with only one PCI slot there're not many options. I pity the company that needed to use a PCI controller card for some sort of legacy device, and also needed network conectivity...
The funny thing is, the problem on startup is the ethernet and sound card competing for the bus, so I disabled the "start windows" sound and now the PC boots without cable disconnected error 😀
Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2025-02-06, 16:29:mgtroyas wrote on 2025-02-06, 16:18:Glad you're enjoying it! I was in the same boat until five or six years ago, as I had only used on-board audio during the mid 2000s. And yeah, it's definitively worth replaying some of the old classics with EAX support. Feel free to drop by the EAX appreciation thread to share your experiences. 😀
Hey, thank you, I'm traveling the same waters of discovery right now. I already noticed your thread, and has been very useful. When I have more info to add I'll definitely comment there 😀
mgtroyas wrote on 2025-02-07, 13:45:I'd bet all the holes will match but the last off-centered one, and perhaps that connector can bend down that little.
I don't think that's a good idea.
By moving the connector out of place even slightly, you would put stress on the solder joints, and possibly the PCB as well. There's a chance that the card could suffer damage from that.
Yes I think the same, once I have it in hand I'll evaluate options.
mgtroyas wrote on 2025-02-08, 09:18:Yes I think the same, once I have it in hand I'll evaluate options.
Saw the above post about moving to a bigger desktop version with PCI, I want to try with my little Vostro I have but I'm going to go a slightly different route.
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/195849038343?
Going to grab one of these that is "maybe" compatible with EAX PCI cards but before I throw cash at a full enclosure Ill try one of these https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/135172568890?
First, its a similar device but no enclosure, if it works ok then ill go the more expensive route as it'll give me two PCI slots for one PCIe slot .. Vostro has 3 spare.
Failing that I could try one of these https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/251273625744? Itll allow me to throw a Titanium HD in there and see if it works.
I dont really mind if the sound card is external .. if anything itll help as these EAX cards can get quite warm and the SFF case already has heat issues.
*NOT AFFILIATED WITH THE SELLERS, ONLY HERE FOR INFORMATION PURPOSES*
Trashbytes wrote on 2025-02-09, 11:16:Itll allow me to throw a Titanium HD in there and see if it works.
Titanium HD doesn't have WinXP drivers.
Not sure what OS you're running on your system, but I thought I'd mention it just in case.
Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2025-02-09, 11:42:Trashbytes wrote on 2025-02-09, 11:16:Itll allow me to throw a Titanium HD in there and see if it works.
Titanium HD doesn't have WinXP drivers.
Not sure what OS you're running on your system, but I thought I'd mention it just in case.
hrmmm .. yup I forgot that detail ...ok guess ill stick to the PCI cards.
Though out of curiosity I could throw 10 on a SDD and see if the PCIe to External PCIe adaptor works with a Titanium HD, Im dubious of their compatibility. (The Vostro is a i7 2600 so its compatible with 7,10 and 11 with a few mods)
Its a 16x adaptor so ...the stupid in me also wants to see just how gimped a 1080ti would be in that slot running via USB.
mgtroyas wrote on 2025-01-22, 11:13:- Scanline Sync is "G-Sync/FreeSync in software" (so perfect for any CRT): a way of getting vertical sync smoothness, ideally without tearing , but without the additional lag and other problems that real vsync can cause. It tries to refresh the image on screen during the period the scanlines are not being drawn on the monitor.
I recently started using scanline sync for the first time, though not on a CRT monitor and not on older games. Basically, I'm using it to limit the frame rate to 30 in some DX11 games that I'm playing on my big TV screen under Win7. It works very well when set up correctly.
However, I noticed that using scanline sync causes CPU utilization to go up a fair bit on my i5 3570K, compared to using just the normal RTSS frame limiter or regular V-Sync. This is per MSI Afterburner. I was wondering if this happens on your system as well?
Scanline sync is not magic and will tear once the CPU or especially GPU are overloaded. So it's not "Freesync in software". Come to think of it, Scanline sync has a lot of the same issues as a SLI/Crossfire setup.
I must be some kind of standard: the anonymous gangbanger of the 21st century.
Trashbytes wrote on 2025-02-09, 11:16:Saw the above post about moving to a bigger desktop version with PCI, I want to try with my little Vostro I have but I'm going t […]
Saw the above post about moving to a bigger desktop version with PCI, I want to try with my little Vostro I have but I'm going to go a slightly different route.
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/195849038343?
Going to grab one of these that is "maybe" compatible with EAX PCI cards but before I throw cash at a full enclosure Ill try one of these https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/135172568890?
First, its a similar device but no enclosure, if it works ok then ill go the more expensive route as it'll give me two PCI slots for one PCIe slot .. Vostro has 3 spare.
Failing that I could try one of these https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/251273625744? Itll allow me to throw a Titanium HD in there and see if it works.
I dont really mind if the sound card is external .. if anything itll help as these EAX cards can get quite warm and the SFF case already has heat issues.
*NOT AFFILIATED WITH THE SELLERS, ONLY HERE FOR INFORMATION PURPOSES*
Wow, that was an idea I left on the back burner, but these links are very useful in case I decide to do something similar in the future, thank you for sharing.
Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2025-02-13, 08:55:I recently started using scanline sync for the first time, though not on a CRT monitor and not on older games. Basically, I'm using it to limit the frame rate to 30 in some DX11 games that I'm playing on my big TV screen under Win7. It works very well when set up correctly.
However, I noticed that using scanline sync causes CPU utilization to go up a fair bit on my i5 3570K, compared to using just the normal RTSS frame limiter or regular V-Sync. This is per MSI Afterburner. I was wondering if this happens on your system as well?
Sorry I haven't tested in detail scanline sync yet as it didn't work on XP, so for now I don't have much info to share.
The Serpent Rider wrote on 2025-02-13, 11:57:Scanline sync is not magic and will tear once the CPU or especially GPU are overloaded. So it's not "Freesync in software". Come to think of it, Scanline sync has a lot of the same issues as a SLI/Crossfire setup.
Yes, the GPU must have much more performance than what the game demands, or the method starts to show problems.
Ok, just as an update, I could finally test the PCIe Ethernet card I had bought. It fortunately solved the problem, XP set the card on IRQ16 so it doesn't share IRQ20 with the Creative, and it indeed removed all the network disconnections and background noises. On Vista and later this could probably be fixed using Message Signaled-Based Interrupts but unfortunately XP doesn't support it. I also tried changing from ACPI to Standard PC and it probably worked, the problem is then the total number of available IRQs is much smaller, so you end with more shared IRQs than before. Ah, and going back is a mess, I fortunately had a recent Clonezilla backup.
The new network card was slower initializing on startup, and that caused my desktop shortcuts to network shares installed games losing the icons on boot, fortunately configuring a static IP accelerated the process enough to fix that problem.
With the new sound and network cards, you will probably want to disable the integrated ones, unfortunately the BIOS of the HP 8300 (and others) is pretty limited and there's no option for doing so. Disabling them on the Windows device manager of is probably enough, but if for some reason you prefer/need to do it on BIOS, funnily enough there's a way. An official tool called HP BIOS Configuration Utility, which allows accessing options from Windows that don't have a menu entry on the BIOS setup. Latest versions don't work on XP but on this site you can download older ones, I tried 2.60.13 and worked perfectly (the downloaded EXE wont work on XP for some reason, but you can extract it with 7-Zip). After installing it you must simply run "BiosConfigUtility.exe /Set:file.txt" where file.txt contains this text:
English System Audio *Device hidden Device available Network Controller *Device hidden Device available […]
English
System Audio
*Device hidden
Device available
Network Controller
*Device hidden
Device available
I also received the cable to convert the Creative X-Fi internal connector to HD Audio socket... just to realize I didn't need it, the pin-out is exactly as needed! So I went ahead and disconnected the front sound panel cable from the motherboard, and connect it to the X-Fi. The cable has the needed length after some rerouting, so I could finally test connecting my headset and yes it worked, and after enabling the options on the Creative software now it switches to headphones mode and mutes the speakers when connected, terrific!
Well nothing simply works on this build, so now the HP would beep showing an error about having the front sound panel disconnected, and forcing to press F1, on each boot. Some more time looking for solutions and it's fortunately fixed shorting two pins of the audio connector! Here you can see the proposed solution, I'll only say mine is much uglier and involves a twisty tie from a sliced bread bag... but works!
So after all these fixes over fixes, all seems to be finally working, and the sound quality using headphones is just fantastic. Now I'll hopefully spend some time enjoying it and discovering what I didn't experience 25 years ago...
mgtroyas wrote on 2025-01-25, 20:42:Thank you, yes I know there were some X-FIs on SFF format but unfortunately all I've seen for now are PCI and my Optiplex SFF doesn't have PCI ports, only PCIe. And anybody knows about "Auzen X-Fi Forte 7.1"? Seems to be both PCIe and low profile.
On the other hand I've used DSOAL-XP on all the games that support EAX and surprisingly it has been problematic only in one or two, and as far as I tested with simple stereo speakers I noticed the effects.
I have a very similar optiplex build compared to yours and I do also have that Auzen X-Fi Forte 7.1 inside. This is indeed the holy grail WinXP 32-bit SFF sound card you have to hunt for.
It took me a whole year scouring my national second hand market to find one so I instantly jumped on the occasion when I saw it listed somewhere.
DSAOAL is a good attempt but after more experience I personally don't feel like it matches real hardware acceleration close enough. It gets 70% of the job done, sure, but it's not accurate enough to my liking.
I totally agree it'd be the best option, unfortunately there's no trace of one on my local second hand market, probably they weren't available even new. So I "moved to other house to make the table fit" and switched to a HP Elite 8300 just to use a PCI X-Fi card, some additional problems had to be fixed but in the end it worked great.
DSOAL has some limitations, some games crash with it, others have eye-piercing bugs, and the ones that work are not fully accurate to the original effects... but to be honest I'm impressed of being able to experience it reasonably on most games without compatible hardware or OS. I wish one day DSOAL-XP will be maintained up-to-date with upstream version.
This is the right temporary solution until you can stumble on the Auzen Card or if one day you give in for a wide ATX build.
For your bracket issue I ran into the same problem for an other Low Profile card and be aware that you can find some alternatives from your favorite Chinese retailer, they won't fit perfectly but they'll still do the job.
