IM a bit lost if Freesynch and Gsynch monitor compatibility means that monitor can run on any requested refresh rate from 30 to max (so 70 or 72 is included) and even if yeah, if it needs some driver to make it happen or its only monitor thing.
There is also videocard part, are all modern cards still stupporting this mode, because of BIOS and CMS, legacy boot option or it was somewhere in past removed?

Im already using "some box middleman" to get VGA picture on my modern monitors anyway.. Its ATEN VC-160:
https://www.aten.com/eu/en/products/professio … nverters/vc160/

I just got it to get some picture from old machines in my primary computer room. It supports up to 1920x1200@60Hz (officialy 1600x1200@60Hz), so far i not played on it much.. but at least in Windows settings i set 120 Hz some lower resolutions.. Picture is sometimes all over the place, so you sometimes need to use physical buttons on it adjust it.. or change resolution twice.
I not even checked in my Freesynch / LG G-SYNCH compatible 144Hz / 2560x1440 monitors controls, what refresh rate its actually reporting, im glad that monitor is able to detect 4:3. Im not at my main lair right now, i cant check it.

I never was in perfect sound thing, neither perfect picture, but i care about it, so is nice to read some hints and be able to improve my setup, when is without big pain. I so i had at least that DELL 2209 and IPS panels and 3x 144 Hz Freesynch Nano IPS 27..

Primary message from here is that i could and need just better box like OSSC/ Retrotink, someone already made it..

CRT Terminator is nice, as far as understand better solution, but it needs free ISA slot and more modern machines, PCI version would better.. as lots of new things its costly for just 1 machine, its not portable box to quickly reconnect it to other machine. In guess theory it would be possible make it as external solution and only by some ISA to external box adapter for every machine, where you want to use, because its just some ISA connecto and cable it would be quite cheap to produce.. and whole thing would make economycaly more sense.

At some time it may get cheaper or there would be some better or worse clone, or something even better. When i will i mood and feel that i need it, i will order it.

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2024-12-02, 13:16:

Dell 2209WA has 75 Hz without frameskip, but you won't get good scaling from it, because 1050 vertical resolution does not divide nicely with most modes, except EGA 640x350.

I think it has 1:1 mode as well. If it supports 75Hz at lower resolutions as well, you could get a smaller window with borders (which would still be bigger than a 15" LCD).

It has support only for fill and 4:3.

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2024-12-03, 09:31:

It has support only for fill and 4:3.

Ah, that's right. I'm confused between that and the U2410 (which has 1:1 and Aspect, but not forced 4:3). Too many DELL monitors to remember. Oh well, so you are correct, the unconventional resolution for DOS games is a limitation to account for. 😒

ruthan wrote on 2024-12-03, 02:50:

IM a bit lost if Freesynch and Gsynch monitor compatibility means that monitor can run on any requested refresh rate from 30 to max (so 70 or 72 is included) and even if yeah, if it needs some driver to make it happen or its only monitor thing.

The idea of FreeSync and G-Sync is to allow the HDMI video producer side to leave "gaps" in the video stream, and only push a new video frame when the producer side has fully completed rendering one. That is, instead of continuously sending frames back-to-back, a FreeSync/G-Sync capable producer can leave blank clock cycles between video frames, and only start sending a new video frame when one is available.

It does require dedicated support for both the HDMI producer and receiver side.

I believe the idea from the user who suggested looking into FreeSync was to consider that those displays are high refresh rate, and might also support DOS 70Hz as a side effect. OSSC or other VGA->HDMI scalers will definitely not support FreeSync or G-Sync. They won't have use for it, since in VGA, video frames always exist back-to-back with no gaps.

FreeSync and G-Sync capable monitors probably bring more vintage compatibility woes than would help, since e.g. like the ASUS PG259QN, they probably have dropped DVI-D video stream support altogether (which is what all these VGA->HDMI scalers, including OSSC and RetroTink, produce) which is why the display won't even sync to the converter's produced video anymore. And since they are gaming displays, supporting 4:3 is becoming alien to them, so they are dropping any Aspect Ratio control options in the menus.

There do exist modern HDMI displays that support up to 75 Hz natively, without need for FreeSync and G-Sync. The good news is that all these displays (from the sample size that I've seen at least) can sync to any arbitrary xy.zwu Hz video mode that comes in, up to the max rating that the display advertises without needing FreeSync or G-Sync to do so.

Just prove that Dell 2009 - can do 70,72,75 Hz. I have tried in XP 320x200 (you can getsuch low in XP) and 640x480 and 1280x1024 with Gefore 2 TI.

Dell 2007FP maintains compatibility with old video modes, but only with frame skipping.

Many of the older panels can sync to 70-75Hz signals, but they will frameskip down to 60Hz. So the real test after setting up such a 70Hz video mode is to run some content that manages to update the frame at 70fps, to see if the display is skipping frames, or if it is actually displaying all the 70fps.

The DOS SCROLL.EXE demo in CRT Terminator suite can be used for that (it updates at 70fps), although not completely sure if it will run under Windows XP. Maybe WinXP does have some other good source of 70Hz content to verify, if SCROLL.EXE won't work there. Also e.g. One Must Fall 2097 and the Yo! demo run at 70fps without frameskips, that can be used to test.

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2024-12-03, 23:16:

Dell 2007FP maintains compatibility with old video modes, but only with frame skipping.

Its all sound make some faked refresh rate thing, i don't fully understand why the monitor would do it? If it supports 70 Hz in Windows in lesser resolutions, its faked too (no real 70Hz with frameskipping) or it depends on resolution and driver is needed? What about higher refresh rates in WIndows, these above 75 Hz, are they real and for which resolutions?

Are these resolution somehow complicated for monitor chip logic or panel itself? Its not native resolution and slow computation resolution is not native? Or its just additional work which panel manufactors were lazy to do?

I understand specific which wrote clb about that refresh rate warry, that are some pixels and color shifts per game and its not standardized, but this monitor part is something else.

clb wrote on 2024-12-03, 23:22:

The DOS SCROLL.EXE demo in CRT Terminator suite can be used for that (it updates at 70fps), although not completely sure if it will run under Windows XP. Maybe WinXP does have some other good source of 70Hz content to verify, if SCROLL.EXE won't work there. Also e.g. One Must Fall 2097 and the Yo! demo run at 70fps without frameskips, that can be used to test.

Its this demo reporting frameskipping somehow in numbers as hard facts? Its all about eyes check, should i see some shadows / teardowns / stuttering like with Nvidia SLI or monitor real lag testing ? I never was obsessed (i dont mean it badly) this 70 thing or graphics artist probes to testing colors.

Meanwhile i checked Aten VC160 with freesynch monitor, at bios boot RAM check(SS7 machine with Geforce 3) monitor OSD check reports 60 Hz, later it switch to 720x400@70Hz after ram check and keeps it while Dos Navigator its on. It also reports FreeSYnch ON as active. I tried Doom and it reports 720x400x70 too, so not 320x200. SO ATEN or monitor is somehow upscaling and probably messing with aspect ratio, because 320x200 - is 16:10 and 720x400 - is 16 : 8.88.. because its filling fullscreen in both cases and screen is 16:9.
I have aspect correction on in monitor settings, but Aten probably sending signal which it not fully understand 🙁 Or aspect ration correction also works only for some resolutions. I have to check if Aten has some settings, except just move picture up/donw + left/right.

But 70 Hz and Freesynch on seems promising or not? There are for sure much better boxes than my Aten, im using it to just get any picture at all on modern monitors.

Update: I forgot that i some 4K hdmi connected too, so signal goes from VGA to ATEN- DVI to in HDMI switch and After to monitor HDMI. I would be interesting, just try connect DVI-HDMI cable right into monitor.

ruthan wrote on 2024-12-04, 21:50:

Meanwhile i checked Aten VC160 with freesynch monitor, at bios boot RAM check(SS7 machine with Geforce 3) monitor OSD check reports 60 Hz

Err, sorry, I mixed up my memory. SCROLL.EXE was actually 320x240 @ 60 Hz (It uses Mode X) and not 70Hz. So SCROLL.EXE does not show 70 fps content.

I added another set of test programs 60HZ.EXE and 70HZ.EXE to the repository that will do 60fps and 70fps animations. Download zip at 70HZ.ZIP. You can use those EXEs to test if 60 Hz vs 70 Hz will look smooth. If both look smooth to the eye, then the display will likely render 70 Hz properly. 60HZ.EXE is expected to always look smooth. 70HZ.EXE might stutter. Compare how it looks visually against 60HZ.EXE to see if it is the same or different.

I have tried that 60Hz/70Hz test.

Dell 2207 monitor.
I was in hurry, so no proper old testing machine, but just one on right now on the table Z370.
I know that quality sucks, i recorded it by phone 30 FPS, so im not sure if would be able to tell, if its ok or not.

FIrst i have tried UHD Graphics 610, but even with DVI out or HDMI to VGA through some noname HDMi to VGA, reported in 70Hz only 60Hz mode in monitor status Info.
So i had to use Radeon HD 4730 with it monitor reported 70Hz. First part is 60HZ, after 70 Hz for comparison.

Im not really sure about result, i never was in this pixel hunting. I maybe felt that there was small wobbling in 70 Hz mode.

I made 2nd recording with Freesync monitor, i will upload it if this quality is good enough to recognize, if its working or not.

https://streamable.com/5aqlsc

According to what your menu says the monitor is a 2007fp, not 2009.
A video recording isn't going to show it well. You would have to judge it in person.
If you compare to a common TN panel monitor that can do 60-75Hz natively (or a CRT), then you should see an obvious difference in smoothness when scrolling at 70Hz. A few years ago I swapped between 2 monitors to test it and it was pretty jarring. IPS and PVA panels have a great picture but at least in this era, they are unfortunately very specific about only supporting 60Hz. TN panels don't look as good but they go up to 75Hz without frameskipping.

I found some directions to open the service menu on your Dell 2007fp:
https://www.dell.com/community/en/conversatio … 4ccf8a8de4aaf49

1Yes power on holding + and Menu. Hold this until it powers up. Wait for the DVI connector graphic to disappear.
2Now hit the minus "-" key. Sevice menu pops up.
3On my banding piece of junk it says:
4B01C18 SAM UXGA LTM201U1. 

so this might tell what panel you have. But I also saw another thread where people were just seeing cryptic codes that weren't really the panel number. So maybe there's different firmwares.

Many of these monitors use an LG LM201U05. I think that's what I found in a nonworking 2007fp that I took apart several years ago.

the datasheet shows the spec for vertical frequency is 59-61Hz. The video PCB in the monitor has to drop frames to send only 60Hz to the panel.

Others use a Samsung LTM201U1

it shows the same 59-61Hz range on page 10

I don't know if there were any other panels used.

shamino wrote on 2024-12-15, 09:06:

IPS and PVA panels have a great picture but at least in this era, they are unfortunately very specific about only supporting 60Hz. TN panels don't look as good but they go up to 75Hz without frameskipping.

This has nothing to do with panel type. 17-19 inch IPS/xVA support 75Hz just fine.

Sorry i forgot right model number, you know that i meant, based on history, I tested 70Hz freesynch monitor right after it reported 69 Hz. I did see big difference maybe a bit wobbling im not sure.
There is not way how to test it in software? , like print frame number every second and reset. I mean when i would see numbers 1 to 60 only, but not 61 to 70, its not working. Or some with some big jumps..
Regardless it this test does not show it well, i saw some games tests where videocard not proper scrolling was cleary visible, but its something else. It frameskipping means not smooth shifting of objects on screen, i dont notice that.. You probably have to have eyes for it same as with imperfect sound. I guess i can test it in Dosbox on 70+ Hz monitor, if i would feel difference.

Play some pinball games. They usually have elements that will flash on and off during consecutive frames. It's very obvious if the screen isn't rendering at the correct rate because they don't flash evenly.

ruthan wrote on 2024-12-14, 23:26:

I made 2nd recording with Freesync monitor, i will upload it if this quality is good enough to recognize, if its working or not.

https://streamable.com/5aqlsc

It is unfortunately technically not possible to judge from a 60Hz recorded video whether the footage represents proper 70Hz or frameskipped 60Hz (without some postdoc level statistical analysis), so eyeballing the pixels in there is not useful.

.. but:

ruthan wrote on 2024-12-14, 23:26:

Dell 2209 monitor.

and like shamino observes

shamino wrote on 2024-12-15, 09:06:

According to what your menu says the monitor is a 2007fp, not 2009.

the display you have is the Dell 2007FPB. I have that very exact display as well. It does _not_ support displaying proper 70Hz output. I.e. the 2007FPB does sync to 70Hz input video, but it frameskips to display only 60Hz of the footage, dropping 10 frames per second.

I use the Dell 2007FPB as one of the test cases for CRT Terminator Digital VGA Feature Card ISA DV1000 and have pixel peeped its behavior quite a few times, so I'm confident on that. (and many others have reported the same observation about 2007FPB on other threads here at Vogons, so this is not original research from me exactly)

ruthan wrote on 2024-12-15, 12:14:

There is not way how to test it in software? like print frame number every second and reset. I mean when i would see numbers 1 to 60 only, but not 61 to 70, its not working. Or some with some big jumps..

The way the frameskip of 70Hz -> 60 Hz works is that it will decimate the ten frames evenly across the 70 Hz. Not by first displaying 60 frames, and then dropping the next 10 ones. Printing numbers would not work here because human eye is not quick enough to distinguish 70 numbers a second to see if every individual one appeared.

The 70HZ.EXE test program will definitely showcase the stuttering difference. Also the suggestion to play e.g. Pinball Fantasies is a great one, since that game uses a 70Hz video mode, and the ball moves smoothly every frame in that game.

What if we made a simple 70Hz test program: display 7 different frames in a repeating loop, with each frame featuring a unique white digit on a black background in a different location on the screen? If one frame in every seven is being dropped by the monitor, one of the digits would never be observed...

To belabor the point, I think that Freesync and Gsync support on monitors is likely going to be more of a problem rather than of help, since
a) no VGA -> HDMI upscaler will take benefit of Freesync or Gsync, so neither of those features are activated there,
b) Freesync/Gsync signal processors might instead drop support for DVI-D video streams, which is what VGA->HDMI upscalers (like OSSC, RetroTink) generate, so result is no video at all (e.g. ASUS PG259QN that I have did this, so no sync at all to VGA->HDMI scalers)
c) Freesync/Gsync monitors are more geared towards gaming, and not for "professional" uses, which make them more likely to lack the critical 4:3 aspect ratio option. (e.g. ASUS PG32UCDP that I just recently got has no 4:3 scaling support)

For 70Hz DOS Support, the two monitors that I know to exist that are best for DOS gaming purposes are

ASUS PA248QV

Pros:
+ 1920x1200 instead of 1920x1080
+ IPS panel
+ natively supports and displays up to 75 Hz, no frameskipping
+ has analog VGA input
+ great OSD and UI buttons
+ has built-in analog audio input that can be used while viewing picture from HDMI. Although a bit middling, bearable built-in audio quality in a pinch

Cons:
- 4:3 upscaling mode is not fixed 4:3, but an "intelligent 4:3", which won't work to show 320x200 analog VGA input from DOS in 4:3. (displays in 16:10)

CRT Terminator avoids that minus altogether, as it upscales video in a way that is compatible with Asus's "intelligent 4:3". But for using OSSC, Retrotink or direct Analog VGA input, the "intelligent 4:3" scaling mode will be a deal breaker.

Another display that I have found decent is

Philips Brilliance 252B9/00

Pros:
+ 1920x1200 instead of 1920x1080
+ IPS panel
+ natively supports and displays up to 75 Hz, no frameskipping
+ not completely sure, but I recall it had a fixed (no conditions) 4:3 upscaling mode
+ has analog VGA input

Cons:
- poor OSD and UI buttons
- has built-in analog audio input, but horrible audio quality

So it is possible to get native 70Hz without frameskip from "non-gaming" displays like the above two. They are not real 4:3, but personaIly I find that an ok sacrifice since they tick the other boxes. (actually, seeing e.g. The Incredible Machine 1 in correct 16:10 was a nice bonus)

Although my usage is a bit special, since I feed CRT Terminator to these.

Ok, i at least tried. I my phone cant record faster than 60 Hz in full hd.

I hope that it would be more obvious, or my freesynch monitor setup, also does frameskipping. What would be actually good thing from gaming perspective.

Whole problem is created, by that fake support of 70 Hz on monitor side, this way all monitors could be rated with higher refresh rate, that they are able to support "properly".
I believe that your finding in datasheets are right.

In Windows, there was something like monitor overclocking, i read something about forcing 144 monitors to 160, because panels where capable to do it. Back in CRT era, i used PowerStrip to push CRT a bit more, to get 10/20 Hz more, when HW was capable to do it. I guess that something like that is not possible on Dos, without completely defining new monitor modes, with standard ones, monitor will just throw away anything over 60 Hz. Because 60 to 70, is like 15%, if there would be some hardcoded frameskipping, maybe it would be in HW tolerance, or its monitor main chip problem, not panel itself, maybe it could somehow hacked.

jmarsh wrote on 2024-12-15, 18:54:

What if we made a simple 70Hz test program: display 7 different frames in a repeating loop, with each frame featuring a unique white digit on a black background in a different location on the screen? If one frame in every seven is being dropped by the monitor, one of the digits would never be observed...

Great idea, that is a much better test. I suppose if something is worth doing, it is worth overdoing...

Updated 70HZ.EXE with that new test (70HZ.ZIP, GitHub), indeed it shows the frameskip clearly, now even in a phone camera capture.

Result: https://youtu.be/p95zPv9kDTk : ASUS PA248QV (left) against Dell 2007FPB (right)

There the Dell2007FPB never displays the box with frame number 5 on it.