Links can use 8MB in 1992? That was a lot of RAM in 92. Strike Commander, Wing Commander 3, and X-Com recommend 8MB and those are 1993-1994.

Games that use DOS extenders might not have a rigid limit.

Your question reminds me of a similar issue: was expansion card or chipset EMS even that common, or by the time EMS reached beyond business applications like 1-2-3 or AutoCAD, for all intents and purposes did everyone use EMM386?

If you look at the vogonswiki, games didn't actually use EMS until around 1991/1992/1993: https://www.vogonswiki.com/index.php/List_of_ … hat_require_EMS

It seems like games using EMS had a brief burst in popularity after the hardware reasons for EMS were already gone, and in practice, those games were run on 386 systems. A few of the games even require multiple megabytes of EMS.

It's been suggested to me that EMS is particularly handy for the sound card buffer. And I guess it helped you, as a game developer, cheap out on using a DOS extender until DOS/4GW made those free.

I'm just young enough that anything I played was either pure real mode (e.g. Commander Keen) or DOS-extended games, so I got to bypass the whole gaming EMS issue 😁

swaaye wrote on 2024-10-29, 20:21:

Links can use 8MB in 1992? That was a lot of RAM in 92.

Yup, it required 2MB of RAM, but could use up to 8MB.

I think most people had EMM386 loaded. If you want to load drivers and TSRs into upper memory you need it. So most PCs probably had the some amount of EMS available.

I guess my question is more along the lines of: what percentage of XT and XT clone machines had any EMS, and for 286 chipsets supporting hardware EMS, what percentage of systems actually had it enabled.

jakethompson1 wrote on 2024-10-29, 20:29:

Your question reminds me of a similar issue: was expansion card or chipset EMS even that common, or by the time EMS reached beyond business applications like 1-2-3 or AutoCAD, for all intents and purposes did everyone use EMM386?

If you look at the vogonswiki, games didn't actually use EMS until around 1991/1992/1993: https://www.vogonswiki.com/index.php/List_of_ … hat_require_EMS

That seems to track with what I've researched. It seems that games from 1990 and earlier just used conventional memory (640k or less).

Back in the day, Diablo 2 was stuttering like crazy while I only had 64MB RAM. It felt noticeably smoother after I upgraded to 96MB.

Also, I vaguely remember someone on this forum testing a bunch of games while running the Win9x hardware monitor utility in the background and checking the RAM usage logs.

I have never personally set my eyes upon EMS hardware so that surely means it was rare. 😀

Were there games that could use EMS on a 286 or older? That would be interesting.

Once in the 386 and 486 times XMS and EMS were probably interchangeable. Use whichever was more convenient as every PC had both.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2024-10-29, 20:47:

Back in the day, Diablo 2 was stuttering like crazy while I only had 64MB RAM. It felt noticeably smoother after I upgraded to 96MB.

PCGamingWiki lists 128MB recommended for Diablo 2.

Meanwhile the original box lists 32MB RAM minimum requirements (64MB for multiplayer), while the Battle Chest states 64MB required.

swaaye wrote on 2024-10-29, 20:53:

I have never personally set my eyes upon EMS hardware so that surely means it was rare. 😀

Were there games that could use EMS on a 286 or older? That would be interesting.

Once in the 386 and 486 times XMS and EMS were probably interchangeable. Use whichever was more convenient as every PC had both.

The design of your game--DOS-extended (protected mode, 32-bit code), or real mode/V86 mode (16-bit code with calculations using 32-bit registers allowed) would dictate which one you'd need to use.

I'm thinking once DOS/4GW got bundled with Watcom, making it easy to write a DOS-extended game, interest in EMS evaporated overnight, as that vogonswiki list attests around 1994.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-10-29, 19:07:

With Windows games, 1999's System Shock 2 recommends 64MB which is the highest I've seen so far for that era.

64 mb recommended is typical for a demanding 3d game from that year i'd say. unreal from a year prior already listed 128 mb as part of an "awesome system" in its readme.

fallout 1 (1997) has 16 mb required/32 mb recommended for the win95 version but for DOS, it's 32 mb required. this might seem a little odd at first because with titles that support both, usually the windows version would have higher memory requirements, but perhaps in this case they factored the windows pagefile in for the 16 mb minimum and did not bother to program in pagefile usage in DOS. just a guess though, i've never actually ran the DOS version.

and yeah, was about to give diablo 2 a special mention, despite the official 64 mb not being much at all for 2000 on paper. i've seen this game use well over 256 mb on long sessions, simply because everything is kept in memory after being loaded once. so having a lot of RAM should reduce both loading times between acts and stutter when coming across new assets. here's an anandtech thread from 2000 making the point about RAM, with people already talking about 256 mb: https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/should-d … -system.358866/

I wonder how the codebases for those very end of the line DOS games (1997) that also targeted Windows looked.

Was the code almost entirely overlapping? Or perhaps there were a bunch of hand assembly optimizations for the DOS version, but then the marketplace was shifting quickly to Windows gaming during development, so they shifted priority to the Windows version but still released the DOS version anyway since it was done?

auron wrote on 2024-10-29, 21:03:

64 mb recommended is typical for a demanding 3d game from that year i'd say. unreal from a year prior already listed 128 mb as part of an "awesome system" in its readme.

Interesting, I'll have to take a look at that. The box only lists 32MB as 'recommended'. 😅

fallout 1 (1997) has 16 mb required/32 mb recommended for the win95 version but for DOS, it's 32 mb required. this might seem a little odd at first because with titles that support both, usually the windows version would have higher memory requirements, but perhaps in this case they factored the windows pagefile in for the 16 mb minimum and did not bother to program in pagefile usage in DOS. just a guess though, i've never actually ran the DOS version.

That's good to know, I was wondering if there were any games that needed 32MB under DOS. That's definitely unusual to list the Win95 requirements as less than DOS, though. Every other games I've seen has the opposite.

The DOS version of Master of Orion 2 can run on 8MB machines (with some reduced visuals) whereas the Windows version requires 16MB. The readme also suggests the DOS version if your video card isn't supported by DirectX. The two versions are not network compatible with each other.

I think a DOS version of games was necessary at the time to maximize the audience.

jakethompson1 wrote on 2024-10-29, 21:08:

I wonder how the codebases for those very end of the line DOS games (1997) that also targeted Windows looked.

Was the code almost entirely overlapping? Or perhaps there were a bunch of hand assembly optimizations for the DOS version, but then the marketplace was shifting quickly to Windows gaming during development, so they shifted priority to the Windows version but still released the DOS version anyway since it was done?

well, fallout 2 is more of the same (on the surface, some seem to claim it's not the exact same engine) but DOS support got dropped there, instead NT4 SP3 support is listed. wonder how many expected the sequel to also run on DOS and got disappointed at the time. by the way, it seems DOS support with the 32 mb req wasn't even listed on the box for the first one - the info for that is in the readme though.

there can definitely be some differences with these games, i've noticed in master of orion ii the DOS version that everybody swears by today has these fade transitions between screens that are really irritating if one is used to the win95 version, also it seems to have mouse acceleration that can't be disabled. i think some differences are to be expected with these games mostly being ported to early directx. heroes 2 actually uses either WinG or ddraw depending on version if i recall correctly, in addition to DOS.

the moo2 readme says this:

8MB RAM Version =============== If you have only 8MB RAM, do not load any extended memory manager (such as EMM386 or QEMM) or e […]
Show full quote

8MB RAM Version
===============
If you have only 8MB RAM, do not load any extended memory
manager (such as EMM386 or QEMM) or else the game will not
have enough free memory to run.

Games created on a computer with 8MB RAM or network games
involving a computer with only 8MB RAM will not have nebulae.

If you are playing the Windows 95 version, you must set
Virtual Memory to be at least 16MB. To do this, select
"System" from your Control Panels. Click the "Performance"
tab and then the "Virtual Memory" button. Set "Minimum"
to "16."

jakethompson1 wrote on 2024-10-29, 20:34:

I guess my question is more along the lines of: what percentage of XT and XT clone machines had any EMS, and for 286 chipsets supporting hardware EMS, what percentage of systems actually had it enabled.

Hi. I think those that ran AutoSketch 3, Windows 2.x together with commercial applications, DESQView (for mailboxes operated by their sysops) and so on.
Some compilers like Power Basic 3.5 or Microsoft BASIC PDS 7.1 could use EMS, too.

Edit: DOS programs for designing printed circuit boards (PCBs) had also existed in early 90s.
They supported Super VGA and had good use for memory. Not sure if they had used EMS, though.

Classic EMS memory boards had offered a 512KB or 2MB configuration, often.
The 2MB limit somehow was related to the addressing logic being simpler.
128 pages can handle 2 MB, at max. That was with EMS 3.2 specs, at least.
Older EMS 3.2 or EEMS boards had been combined with updated, LIM 4 compatible memory managers, often.
To get more memory, multiple 2 MB boards of same type had been logically combined by the LIM memory managers.

Novell Netware server software also had good use for lots of RAM, I think.
8 to 16MB were useful in 1990, if not before, depending on the size of the LAN.

Edit: Printer spoolers also consumed some RAM, In think.
They stored large amounts of bitmap data if graphics were involved.
Imagine half of these ~25 PCs sending out printer jobs and just one laser printer is on-line.

Not sure of they needed EMS, though. Netware 2.x was made for 80286 CPUs, but ran on XTs, still?

That's why early 386 big tower motherboards had these massive memory boards, after all.
To allow these "mini mainframes" doing heavy work.
Either for multitasking/timesharing and dedicated 640KB PC "VMs" for each serial terminal (PC-MOS/386, Real/32 etc) or traditional use as servers.

This is all relative, though, I think. Resources, I mean.
PCs in late 80s to early 90s had too little memory installed in practice
(OS/2 1.1 in 1988 needed a modest 5 MB of RAM to handle serious workload).

By comparion, early Unix workstations in the 90s had about 32 or 64MB of RAM and used 1280x1024 256c minimum resolution. They did cost their $80.000, of course.
But technology doesn't care about money, it's all about function.
And sufficient RAM and storage were needed, simply. Blame physics.

By comparion, the Windows 3.1 Super VGA driver had used a modest 1024x768 800x600 resolution in 16c.
It wasn't much but okay for serious wordprocessing, though.
Unix workstations at 1024x768 in 256c were an almost shameful configuration at same time. It's like using EGA driver on Windows 3.x.

Edit: The Windows 3.x comparion because Win 3.1 GUI was inspired by Motif/CDE (Unix standard of the time).

Edit:

swaaye wrote on 2024-10-29, 20:53:

Were there games that could use EMS on a 286 or older? That would be interesting.

Um, Wing Commander 1 and Keen IV ? 🤷‍♂️
Wing Commander used EMS if available, to enhance sounds and graphics effects, I think.
Commander Keen IV doesn't really use EMS, but can store information in EMS page frame (64 KB). As if it was an UMB, I think.

The older Sierra games re-released on the CD-ROM can use EMS, XMS and plain Extended Memory (int15), I think.
Games like Space Quest III, but with updated versions of the AGI interpreter.

Edited. Sorry, I'm sleepy. 😴

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-10-29, 19:07:

With Windows games, 1999's System Shock 2 recommends 64MB which is the highest I've seen so far for that era.

Earliest I recall for 64MB are Everquest beta phases! And Q3TEST probably too, but that's more advising (can run on 32mb but the models eat a ton of memory on load for being precise vertex morphy things. It's worse in the final game when they dropped the dropping of loaded higher poly lod meshes for r_lodbias settings)

On a 286 I only used XMS. With 386+ I always added NOEMS to the EMM386 line.

I remember Wolf3D could use XMS or EMS. Dune2 also used XMS if available.

The first IBM AT (286) I had was loaded up with several memory expansion cards, maybe up to 6-8MB or so, to run a CAD software.
I still ran into an issue with some giant logfiles that exceeded that memory size, and the only editor that could handle file paging at the time was a DOS version of Emacs.

For PC games I got my first 386 filled to the brim with 16MB, and that worked fine for quite some time, it was more speed & gfx that made me upgrade.