VOGONS


First post, by Tevian

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12/8/24

V0.5 Prototype testing.

For whoever is interested, I need two or three volunteers to test this V0.5 backplane. If you want to DM me here on Vogons, first send me a message of your interest in participating and a photo of one or more compatible PISA/PCISA, Allen Bradley, or ISA "half-sized" SBC along with the model number so I can verify what you'll be testing with. Within the next week, I'll have a few of the V0.5 boards ready to test with. I will provide these prototypes for free, but I'd ask that the volunteers provide the shipping costs. I can't promise this will move quickly as I do this as a hobby in my free time, but I will continue to make forward progress.

The goal is to have honest feedback about functionality and possible changes for a final version and what should be included in the documentation for the end user. Thx ahead of time for anyone that's interested in helping out.

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Project Backwards

I've started this thread as a record of progress and soliciting advice or suggestions on a small universal backplane specifically designed for half-sized single-board computers. The primary edge connector for this involves a now-obsolete 188-pin EISA standard slot and this design is based on the PISA specification here -> https://www.kontron.com/download/download?fil … f&product=87221. While the edge connector is the same on the Allen Bradley SBCs, the physical wiring is incompatible with current PISA backplanes. Making them work requires careful design adaptations in order to accommodate the need for a 3.3V CPU supply in place of 8 total pins with alternate usage in the PISA spec. As a bonus, the EISA slot in the PISA configuration also allows for the use of ISA half-sized SBCs.

EBay is littered with these SBCs in many different forms and prices. Since these were primarily designed for industrial use, the prices can be a bit steep. However, of the examples I've purchased, most were under the $60 range so deals can be found! Since the slot this was designed for has been EOL for a while, the inventory of these cards will have less and less value as the systems they are supposed to go into slowly evaporate. The remaining value of these old x86 SBCs will be found in ancient industrial equipment and/or retro enthusiasts who want to tinker with these cute little boards. 😜

For example, these are a few of the part numbers I'm designing around. These are all half-sized SBCs for reference measuring around 190mm in length.

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(ICP PCISA-158HV) PISA Socket 7 Pentium
(IEI PCISA-C400R-RS-R20) PISA Mobile Celeron
(Advantech PCA-6145R) ISA Socket 3 486/586
(Allen Bradley 6189-1CPU233) Proprietary Socket 7 Pentium

Currently, the status of this project is in the design stage and almost ready for the first prototype boards. My affinity for small compact computer systems powers my motivation for doing this. I grew up with computers since I was a kid and always admired smaller systems that were as powerful as the larger bulky stuff. I never had access to industrial single-board computers back in the day. Now, getting into vintage computing, I'm now able to afford to play around with these old systems and it's been super fun. Check out the World's Smallest Voodoo 2 SLI system using these boards... 😜 Worlds Smallest Voodoo 2 SLI Setup!! (Need help PISA SBC)-FIXED-

The focus of this project will remain on the half-sized SBCs. I really like this small size and the design goals are focused on the backplane that's sized to fit these cards. And, while the PICMG is a newer spec that is just as small, it involves PCIe which is a bit too modern as I'd like to stick with early Pentiums and 486 stuff for retro software and games.

Of course, there are many SBCs that are monsters! Most of those use a variety of slot types that get rather lengthy. I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel here and I'm focusing on a short 4-slot backplane that might be useful for those looking at these small SBCs. The overall footprint will be similar to the 4 slot backplanes such as the (PISA) IEI IP-4S2-RS and the proprietary Rockwell Automation A140422-020 Backplane. The latter is rather expensive and in short supply. I don't have much knowledge about the Rockwell backplane other than what I've been able to reverse-engineer from my only example. You can see some of my journey here NEED BIOS HELP Rockwell Automation 140420-030 Allen Bradley 6189-1CPU233 CPU Card SBC.

From what I've gathered, there are a few major differences between the two incompatible cards. The first is the usage of some of the slot pins to provide the 3.3V CPU supply for the card. This is very different from the PISA SBCs in that they all have the 3.3V supply onboard. The next is the relocation of the BIOS battery to the backplane instead of onboard. The BIOS battery feeds through a double diode with the 3.3V supply through what is a ground pin on the PISA spec to feed the super cap on the SBC which runs at 5V when the board is live. Both the supply and BIOS battery use a variety of pins with other important uses on the PISA spec backplanes. Since all these SBCs can be directly powered and function outside of their respective backplanes, I'm confident that careful routing of the ISA and PCI traces will allow for a compatible backplane that omits and/or allows for some of these pins to simply float.

Another reason for only a 4-slot design is because of the Allen Bradley's usage of the CPU supply in place of a few of the 3rd and 4th PCI clock and control pins. While I could simply have an alternate routing for these pins when using a true PISA card, for my purposes, two PCI slots are enough and I wish to keep the overall footprint smallish. This also makes reconfiguring the backplane relatively simple and straightforward. This also means designing some safeguards so as to not ground out the 3.3V and VBAT when slotting a true PISA vs AB card into the SBC slots.

One important design aspect is the allow for the overhang on these cards. In the half-sized category, in order to be efficient, the PCBs are designed to overhang the slot and require about 25mm of clear space behind and 10-15mm of space to the immediate right. This space must be clear of connectors or components that are more than 5mm in height. All the examples I have incorporated this space for jumpers, RAM, headers, etc... In fact, the IEI IP-4S2-RS backplane I have fails because of the SBC fan header colliding with the screw terminals in two examples. The front of the cards also overhang and must be designed around as well.

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The current slot configuration is as follows:

Slot 1 (PISA, AB, ISA) SBC
Slot 2 (PISA, AB, ISA) SBC
Slot 3 Dual purpose ISA/PCI
Slot 4 PCI

It's important to note that most of the SBCs take a large amount of space and in most cases take nearly two slots internally. This is for two main reasons, the CPU heatsink and the RAM. Depending on the CPU, a low-profile heatsink and fan can be used. With adequate airflow, you might be able to get away with omitting the CPU fan. The mobile Celeron I have for instance has no CPU fan but does require airflow to cool the CPU. The next height issue is finding the lowest profile RAM possible. For the socket 7 systems, I was able to find some PC-100 RAM that was 24mm in total height and that's about as low-profile as I've seen.

Some possible configurations:

SBC, ISA card, PCI card, PCI card
ISA card, SBC, PCI card, PCI card
ISA card, ISA card, ISA SBC

These will all depend on the total width of the cards. The ISA, ISA, ISA SBC is a less desirable configuration since an ISA SBC will have no use for the PCI slots. This would simply be a viable configuration since the EISA slot edge connector in ISA is compatible with the upper pin layer in this implementation.

Most of the SBCs have a dedicated power port similar to a standard 4-pin Molex or other. The Allen Bradley for example has a power port that's in the style of the old AT power connecter but is a proprietary keying and pinout. I've explained this in the Allen Bradley SBC post linked above. Powering the SBC directly can be important since the EISA slot has a dual-level pin configuration with rather anemic gauge contacts. This can make for weak connections as opposed to the ISA slot which has larger contacts. I've added a 6-pin header that can be used with a custom-made cable to provide power for either SBC. I've also included a -5V regulator for the vintage ISA cards that may require it.

Deciding on the mounting hole dimensions was interesting. While simply adding holes at the extremes, I decided to also add a second set of holes to the right and bottom that allows for this board to be mounted in the lower slot portion of a micro-ATX case. While I imagine I will make a custom case that encloses the system, for practical reasons, mounting this in a micro-ATX case might be required or beneficial.

While the backplane function can be purely passive, I wanted to add something useful. Based on the work from Sergey Kiselev's DIY backplane https://www.retrobrewcomputers.org/doku.php?i … backplane:start, I've added his implementation of a discrete logic POST code decoder. The overall function of the backplane doesn't require populating these parts, but I've used my POST code reader a handful of times to diagnose some of these SBCs. I'm hoping this addition will be worth the time it took to place and route the ICs. 😁 This is untested and I won't be able to declare its functionality until I'm able to test the first prototype.

The PCI MAPPER!

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One interesting part of this journey has been understanding how the PCI slots are addressed in the different backplanes. This is clearly laid out in the PISA spec which was very useful! Specifically, this involves the routing of the INT and IDSEL pins to the respective PCI slots. For instance, on the PISA spec, the INT(A-D) pins are wired round-robin. The AB backplane doesn't follow this and has specifically different INT wiring. The IDSEL pin needs to be connected to a specific PCI address pin and is different for each additional PCI slot. While the PISA spec uses AD19-22, the AB backplane I have uses AD27 and 28 for the two PCI slots. I've come across information on another card (can't remember where now), that uses AD30 and 31. So, instead of two configurations, I've decided to add a PCI MAPPER CARD. This card can be configured with any combination of the 4 INT pins as well as the IDSEL from PCI slots 0 and 1 to any address line from AD19-31. The PISA spec clearly shows the passive backplane using AD19-22. I'm taking a guess that none of the SBCs use higher than AD19 and included all the way to 31 for flexibility with other cards I haven't come in contact with.

It is my belief unless someone corrects me, that these hardware wirings are mapped somehow in the BIOS and are configured specifically to the backplane they expect to use. The PISA spec is clear and I assume the SBCs are configured to address PCI cards in line with the spec. The AB card is different, but I've been able to reverse-engineer this and it's clear that a reconfiguration of these pins is required when using the different SBCs. The question of, "Is PCI addressing agnostic at the hardware level?", seems to be a tough question with an elusive answer at least for me. I'm moving forward with the assumption that this wiring configuration is board-specific and held in the BIOS as an address map.

The decision to make this a card and not simply a set of solder jumpers was to bring focus to the issue. The card represents something important to the functionality of the backplane and a physical card brings attention to the user. This is also untested and I'm hoping it works out the way I think it will.

PISA backplanes are still plentiful on eBay and range in price. Since this is just a passive backplane, the "cheapest" 4-slot IEI-manufactured board will provide the same functionality for the PISA cards. The Allen Bradley cards on the other hand require the proprietary board and are much rarer while still being close to their MSRP even 20 years later. Making a universal board seems to be a worthwhile effort as the AB cards are more of a mystery in the absence of documentation. Aside from the 6189-1CPU233 socket 7 cards I have, there is also the socket 370 flavor Rockwell Automation 140573-010. Being Rockwell/Allen Bradley, I'm under the assumption this board also takes the proprietary backplane. However, unlike its socket 7 counterpart, this has a fully implemented CPU supply onboard and it's unclear if it needs the 3.3V dedicated pins. This is an assumption from looking at the photos of this card. It's unclear if this card does in fact use the same backplane and I won't know for sure unless I actually encounter one for myself. Because of the unknowns, I will most likely need to make a list of known working boards for reference.

And finally, I'm very curious about feedback from others that have played with or want to play with these half-sized SBCs. Keeping things in a relatively small footprint, what specific features might you want in a board like this?

Thx ahead for any advice or critiques. Once I nail down the schematic a bit more, I'll gladly post it here. 😄👋

Last edited by Tevian on 2024-12-09, 01:55. Edited 4 times in total.

Reply 1 of 57, by keenerb

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Interesting project. I have a couple of these with no backplane, I use my normal PICMIG sbcs or ISA sbcs generally.

Reply 2 of 57, by Tevian

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PICMG is cool,but I don't have any. Although I'd really like to focus on the older 486 and Pentium cards. I'm sure the demand for this style of backplane is pretty low, but the inventory of these SBCs have a very limited use case without the ability to use cards.

For instance, of the SBCs I have, only the Celeron card has built-in sound in the form of AC97. Some have a PC104 connector but a PC104 sound card seems to be very rare.

If retro games is one use case, being able to add a sound card or older graphics accelerator to the SBC necessitates a suitable backplane.

Reply 3 of 57, by Tevian

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Finally received the first prototype PCBs and they look... BEAUTIFUL!

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It should have a board built in a few days for testing. Hopfully I got all the electrons going in the right directions. 😁 I already have a version 2 idea with something rather special in mind. 😋

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Reply 4 of 57, by myne

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Very interesting.
I've sometimes wondered why, especially in the era of 50kg gpus, we don't move back to backplanes.
In my mind, having the CPU card and gpu card mounted back-to-back vertically, would be the next logical SFF and maybe more step. Most people only use one card now.

On that note, I'm slightly surprised you didn't mount the sbc on the other end of the board.
Ie, on the right, so that the height of the heatsinks or other components matters less to the accessibility of the pci/Isa slots.

I know it wouldn't work electrically if you actually did it, but flip the empty board upside-down, and sit the slots in place. That's what I mean.

Maybe I misunderstood it, but what are the differences between the sbc slots? One is one pinout standard and one is another?

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Reply 5 of 57, by Tevian

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myne wrote on 2024-09-25, 11:51:
Very interesting. I've sometimes wondered why, especially in the era of 50kg gpus, we don't move back to backplanes. In my mind, […]
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Very interesting.
I've sometimes wondered why, especially in the era of 50kg gpus, we don't move back to backplanes.
In my mind, having the CPU card and gpu card mounted back-to-back vertically, would be the next logical SFF and maybe more step. Most people only use one card now.

On that note, I'm slightly surprised you didn't mount the sbc on the other end of the board.
Ie, on the right, so that the height of the heatsinks or other components matters less to the accessibility of the pci/Isa slots.

I know it wouldn't work electrically if you actually did it, but flip the empty board upside-down, and sit the slots in place. That's what I mean.

You're not wrong and I did think about mounting the SBC on the far right, but I've decided to model the layout from the backplanes made by the other manufacturers. They've all chosen to mount the SBC to the far left. I suppose this was done so as to not allow the SBC components to overhang the backplane and make designing the enclosures more straightforward. I toyed with the idea, but the asymmetry of the SBC overhanging the backplane just didn't sit right with me. It would make thermals much easier to deal with, but one of my design goals was to keep the footprint small! Here's a pic compared to the backplanes I have. You can see I managed to mimic the footprint.

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Reply 6 of 57, by Tevian

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myne wrote on 2024-09-25, 11:51:

Maybe I misunderstood it, but what are the differences between the sbc slots? One is one pinout standard and one is another?

No. My goal was to craft the backplane so any of the different types could work in either slot. However, a full understanding of the configuration is important. Specifically, there is an extensive configuration change between the PISA and Allen Bradley SBCs so as to not cause damage to the SBC. However, I've implemented a few safety features to minimize this. I've also had to simply float a few of the pins to not cause problems. But as I said, I need to test things out first. I will have to make some comprehensive instructions, but I've silkscreened the important stuff on the backside of the backplane.

This is just the first prototype and I need to test whether or not my reverse engineering of the Rockwell Backplane was sufficient. Fingers crossed! 😁

Reply 7 of 57, by myne

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So Pisa and Allan Bradley are pin compatible but not electrically?

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Reply 8 of 57, by Tevian

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It's rather strange. It's almost like Allen Bradley/Rockwell used "most" of the PISA pinout. They crafted their SBC, (at least the ones using the EISA slots), to inject the CPU 3.3V into the card from the slot instead of including it on the SBC PCB itself. As you can see, the Rockwell backplane has the 3.3V buck supply onboard whereas the PISA is strictly passive. This causes problems with the PISA spec as some of the 3.3V injection pins are used as PCI pins as well as a ground pin. It seems that the Allen Bradley cards only have two PCI channels available as some of these pins would be needed for PCI 3 and 4 in the PISA spec. In fact, the PISA passive backplanes are all max 4 PCI slots. They add a multiplexer for the larger backplanes. You may also notice that Rockwell has the CMOS battery!🤨 There is also the issue with a different PCI INT address mapping which is why I added the PCI MAPPER card so it can be reconfigured.

Well, shoot... I'm getting ahead of myself because I don't even know if this will work as I think it will. But... Just imagine if this backplane had a fully integrated ISA sound card onboard! Wouldn't that be awesome? 😎 One step at a time though.

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Reply 9 of 57, by myne

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Haha it's hard not to think further ahead.

I've... Well, I started and then realised how much work it would be in kicad... To design a 7 slot wide backplane for modern pcie. Basically it would be Intel's project Christine but with the expectation that the sbc would face "up" in a tower case.
Allow 3 slots for that, so have 2x 16x slots back to back in the 3rd slot, then a single or quad pcie and nvme in the 4th slot then a single 16x in the 4th slot.
I contemplated possibly adding Isa via the dISAppointment mod sharing the 4th slot, and agp and pci in the 6th and 7th via a pci bridge. But not in the first revisions.

That, realistically would be the easy part.

The hard part would be designing a full sbc to fit it, and making a few. I believe the format would sell pretty well as an SFF formfactor. Someone like Dell or hp should like it.
7 slots wide, full length, psu above. It'd be a small, but fully featured and cooled solution for today's reality (people only need 1 card).
The hardest thing about the format is figuring out where to put the connectors. One slot doesn't feel like enough for lan, sound, and USB.

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Reply 10 of 57, by Tevian

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myne wrote on 2024-09-25, 12:57:
Haha it's hard not to think further ahead. […]
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Haha it's hard not to think further ahead.

I've... Well, I started and then realised how much work it would be in kicad... To design a 7 slot wide backplane for modern pcie. Basically it would be Intel's project Christine but with the expectation that the sbc would face "up" in a tower case.
Allow 3 slots for that, so have 2x 16x slots back to back in the 3rd slot, then a single or quad pcie and nvme in the 4th slot then a single 16x in the 4th slot.
I contemplated possibly adding Isa via the dISAppointment mod sharing the 4th slot, and agp and pci in the 6th and 7th via a pci bridge. But not in the first revisions.

That, realistically would be the easy part.

The hard part would be designing a full sbc to fit it, and making a few. I believe the format would sell pretty well as an SFF formfactor. Someone like Dell or hp should like it.
7 slots wide, full length, psu above. It'd be a small, but fully featured and cooled solution for today's reality (people only need 1 card).
The hardest thing about the format is figuring out where to put the connectors. One slot doesn't feel like enough for lan, sound, and USB.

I saw that Razer prototype. It looks really cool! I wonder if eventually we'd go back to backplane format for modern machines. Obviously fewer PCBs is a "cheaper" solution, but I do appreciate the modular format.

Reply 11 of 57, by Tevian

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Finally got some time to assemble one of the boards! The first test was 90% successful with all the major functions working. This is good news as it confirmed my assumptions about the reverse engineering of the Rockwell backplane.

What works:

The SBC slots work beautifully! This includes the PISA and Allen Bradley cards as well as the 486 ISA SBC I have since the top row of pins on the EISA slot are the ISA pins. I only needed one bodge wire on the ISA slot. At first, nothing I put in the slot worked so I examined the board view in KiCad closely. Turns out I forgot one trace on data line 5. 😅 Easy to fix.

The ISA and both PCI slots work. This confirmed my assumptions with the PCI mapper card. The different SBCs indeed have different PCI address configurations and the mapper card works as expected.

The dual configuration modes via the jumper settings seem to be working well. This includes the 3.3V jumper set and the VBAT jumper for the Allen Bradley SBCs. The backplane has "warning" LEDs between the SBC slots indicating the 3.3V jumpers are in place. As I mentioned before, this is important to remove as the PISA has one of those pins grounded on the card. The fuse is in place for this reason and should provide safety backup just in case.

What doesn't work:

The POST code decoder doesn't seem to be working. 🤨 All the logic chips were new from Mouser, but the LED driver I wanted (DM9368N) was purchased on eBay (NOS). When installed, all I get is 88 on the 7-seg. I've probed around and I can see binary data coming from the 74ALS574 to the drivers. However, the 7-seg doesn't seem to change with the input. My next step is to breadboard these chips and see if I can get them to display something. I probably should have done this before installing them, but I was impatient.

I'm happy the backplane functions as expected other than the POST code decoder. At its basic level, this is just a passive backplane with some careful routing to make it universal. So, I'd call that a success!

Next, I need to figure out why the "thingy" doesn't work. I hope it's something simple... Some other considerations are for the placement of the surface mount parts. I hand-solders everything (don't look too closely!) and I can see that some parts are a bit to close to the slots. I will probably make some adjustments to the gerbers.

With this success, I have every intention of integrating an ISA sound card. I'm looking at chips like the ES1869F and ES1888. I've ordered a few samples and will design a mockup card with a ZIP to ensure the design works before laying the traces on the backplane. I will try to keep the footprint as small as possible, but I really want to find room for a wavetable header so I can add my WAVEE MT-32 Pi card. 😅

Here's a few pics. This is an example of the Allen Bradley 6189-1CPU233 running a PCI S3 graphics card and an ISA sound card altogether.

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Reply 12 of 57, by myne

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Nice one!

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Reply 13 of 57, by Tevian

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Quick update! I ordered two batches of DM9368N on eBay. Got the Chinese shipped ones and... They seem to work just fine! WTH! Not sure but I'll have to examine the others later. But, it all works!

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Reply 14 of 57, by myne

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Are you sure the 88s aren't upside down?
One has a dot, the other doesn't.
If one is upside down it might explain ir

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Reply 15 of 57, by Tevian

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myne wrote on 2024-09-29, 01:12:

Are you sure the 88s aren't upside down?
One has a dot, the other doesn't.
If one is upside down it might explain ir

The decimals on the 7-segs show activity on the bus and bounce back and forth. They are independent of the DM9368N drivers.

I double-checked a few times with the other chips to make sure they were seated currently. I was also changing the RBO, RBI, LE pull up and pull down. I was able to get the display to show 00 instead of 88 with the LE pulled high but no other activity. Other than that I was super confused because the binary inputs showed clear activity. I still need to breadboard one and see if it will display properly, but I don't know if they are fake or just bad. The internal constant current is working as these are directly driven without a resistor on 5V. So at least that part worked...

I'm just happy the other ones work so I'll set these aside until I can diagnose what's going on. I only bought 2 as a sample so no big loss if they're truly bad.

Reply 16 of 57, by myne

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Signal too fast?

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Re: The thing no one asked for: KICAD 440bx reference schematic

Reply 17 of 57, by Tevian

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myne wrote on 2024-09-29, 06:07:

Signal too fast?

So, the chips are all the same part numbers. (DM9368N). I built a quick test circuit and I can confirm the first two chips I got are bad! Now it's weird that the chip is current limiting like it should, so I guess it's some kind of LED driver, but I'm not sure what's going on. The suspect chip only pulls 70ma while lighting an "8" and the good chip pulls 90ma when displaying an "F". So, something internally isn't the same.

From the pics, the suspect chips have visible lasering lines while the good chip is "cleaner". The suspect chips are a little shinyer too. Also, the small amount of shiny solder on the suspect leads was me when I was testing. They were clean when I got them.

Here are some pics.

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Reply 18 of 57, by myne

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China and fraud.

Name a more iconic duo

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Re: The thing no one asked for: KICAD 440bx reference schematic

Reply 19 of 57, by myne

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BTW, from my reading, the CMI8330 is the most compatible.

More here:
MK8330 : new soundcard based on the CMI 8330 chipset
Can't find cads for it though

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