stamasd wrote on 2024-09-02, 21:41:

He said the USB connector would be used by addon cards plugged alongside this one in the connectors above the ISA fingers. Or possibly in the smaller connector located behind the USB port. Or both. 😀

I had read, but I don't understand why an add-on should be powered via an external USB connector: would I then have an external cable that would then have to go back inside? .. it seems impractical to me.
And then if there is the possibility, from what I see from the prototype, to connect a possible add-on directly to the
ISA lines (which can also provide power), what is the advantage of the USB connector? 🤔

Understand me, mine is curiosity / desire to understand 😀

The fact remains that the project is fantastic (I have always hoped for a quality ESS card produced by Team Orpheus) and that I will already on the list to have this card too 😁

igna78 wrote on 2024-09-03, 13:07:

I had read, but I don't understand why an add-on should be powered via an external USB connector: would I then have an external cable that would then have to go back inside? .. it seems impractical to me.
And then if there is the possibility, from what I see from the prototype, to connect a possible add-on directly to the
ISA lines (which can also provide power), what is the advantage of the USB connector? 🤔

The idea is, that an add-on board plugged onto the MK1869 card (connected to the ISA bus) can contain an USB interface chip and connect to the data lines of the USB port. Such add-on board might implement a USB Gamepad interface for example. As no such add-on board exists yet, the data lines of the USB port are not connected to anything. Yet, power is already provided from the base MK1869 card.

yes that is exactly the idea, like mkarcher explains

Ok, thank you very much for the information 😉

Like the "heart" of a PicoGus card on an add-on board?

Well you guys are going to keep my wallet empty for a long time. Sign me up! Soon I’ll have a 6 sound card 486 like that other guy on here but instead of valuable retro cards it will be all brand new retro cards.
I absolutely love the work you guys do and am happy to support the project. Can’t wait!

Forgot to ask:
You mention this is a “replacement” for the mk8330. Can you explain to the layman (me) what the major differences will be?
I don’t have a mk8330 but I’m constantly watching ebay for one to pop up.

@keropi You can try dropping a DPAK LF50 in place of the 78M05, and see if that runs any cooler. If memory serves it has the same pinout. One benefit of the LF50 is it only needs a minimum 2.2uF for stability, but the 10uF that's already there should be OK as is for a test.

WOW, a very interesting card. I'm looking forward to seeing more of it!

Socket5Alive wrote on 2024-09-03, 22:20:

Forgot to ask:
You mention this is a “replacement” for the mk8330. Can you explain to the layman (me) what the major differences will be?
I don’t have a mk8330 but I’m constantly watching ebay for one to pop up.

"replacement" in the context of good card with a good price , ie not an Orpheus but it still will be maybe the best ESS card made (so far)

keropi wrote on 2024-09-04, 13:37:

Socket5Alive wrote on 2024-09-03, 22:20:

Forgot to ask:
You mention this is a “replacement” for the mk8330. Can you explain to the layman (me) what the major differences will be?
I don’t have a mk8330 but I’m constantly watching ebay for one to pop up.

"replacement" in the context of good card with a good price , ie not an Orpheus but it still will be maybe the best ESS card made (so far)

Would it be safe to say an Orpheus 2 is better/ more capable than this card?

Socket5Alive wrote on 2024-09-04, 14:01:

Would it be safe to say an Orpheus 2 is better/ more capable than this card?

all I can say is that personally I like it more than the MK8330 - which is a fair comparison

bertrammatrix wrote on 2024-09-02, 18:03:

Nice work! Finally ESS gets the remake it deserves. It was always a shame that so little of the cards with their chips came with one of their IMHO fantastic wavetables, perhaps they were too late to the table by the time they came out.

Is anything implemented any differently then ESs would have it on the SB / mixer side of things? I could never get sfx from Transport Tycoon Deluxe (dos version) on any ESS cards set to SBpro for whatever reason, makes me wonder if it would work on this card or if it is some sort of bug with how ESS chips handle something (literally only game I've ever had an unsolvable problem with on an ESs)

I just saw your other thread and tested with the game but I found no issues - I set the game to use SBPRO and I get both music and sfx in game - I spammed building tracks and dynamites a bazillion times and I always got the sfx playing without issues.
I have to add though that there is nothing extra on the MK1869 that would make it work with TTD while other cards do not...

keropi wrote on 2024-09-04, 13:37:

Socket5Alive wrote on 2024-09-03, 22:20:

Forgot to ask:
You mention this is a “replacement” for the mk8330. Can you explain to the layman (me) what the major differences will be?
I don’t have a mk8330 but I’m constantly watching ebay for one to pop up.

"replacement" in the context of good card with a good price , ie not an Orpheus but it still will be maybe the best ESS card made (so far)

Maybe successor is a better word than "replacement". This is sort of the next generation of card designed in the spirit of the MK8330 (designed to be more cost-conscious than the Orpheus line), while not using the same line of chips.

My suspicion is that they will offer better audio quality than the MK8330, as the CMI chip was really designed to be bottom-of-the-barrel cheap, and it showed in the corners cut, and the effort that they had to put into getting decent sound out of it on the MK8330. Until then, most 8330-based cards left much to be desired. On the bright side, it did offer some level of SB16 compatibility, as well as native WSS compatibility, which this ESS does not, as far as I'm aware.

The strength of this design should be in its solid SB Pro compatibility (including some features most other chips don't implement), as well as its FM implementation. Another item on the positive side is that decent documentation was released, potentially allowing for more clever abuse of its features, and newer/better drivers to be written.

640K!enough wrote on 2024-09-04, 20:17:

keropi wrote on 2024-09-04, 13:37:

Socket5Alive wrote on 2024-09-03, 22:20:

Forgot to ask:
You mention this is a “replacement” for the mk8330. Can you explain to the layman (me) what the major differences will be?
I don’t have a mk8330 but I’m constantly watching ebay for one to pop up.

"replacement" in the context of good card with a good price , ie not an Orpheus but it still will be maybe the best ESS card made (so far)

Maybe successor is a better word than "replacement". This is sort of the next generation of card designed in the spirit of the MK8330 (designed to be more cost-conscious than the Orpheus line), while not using the same line of chips.

Thanks for the clarification!

It's like a modernized and better built Compaq Business Wavetable card with a proper wavetable header and the expandability of the MK8330, which is cool.

Including the ESS wavetable synth chip on the card vs as a separate E-wave wavetable board should reduce the BOM / actual parts cost significantly vs the original MK8330 @ 90e + 40e E-wave bundle price for the two separate cards. Is this going to land below the 130e combined price for that combo as a result?

640K!enough wrote on 2024-09-04, 20:17:

My suspicion is that they will offer better audio quality than the MK8330, as the CMI chip was really designed to be bottom-of-the-barrel cheap, and it showed in the corners cut, and the effort that they had to put into getting decent sound out of it on the MK8330. Until then, most 8330-based cards left much to be desired.

As far as I understand, the sound quality issues with 8330 cards were caused by BOTH sides: cards, and chips themselves.
MK8330 has corrected the former, but couldn't have possibly improved the latter.

As MK1869 prototypes already exist, it's finally possible to properly compare CMI8330 vs. ES1869...
So, is MK1869 actually better than MK8330 in terms of sound quality (noise, frequency response, distortion, etc.) ?

Grzyb wrote on 2024-09-05, 13:49:

As far as I understand, the sound quality issues with 8330 cards were caused by BOTH sides: cards, and chips themselves. MK8330 […]
Show full quote

640K!enough wrote on 2024-09-04, 20:17:

My suspicion is that they will offer better audio quality than the MK8330, as the CMI chip was really designed to be bottom-of-the-barrel cheap, and it showed in the corners cut, and the effort that they had to put into getting decent sound out of it on the MK8330. Until then, most 8330-based cards left much to be desired.

As far as I understand, the sound quality issues with 8330 cards were caused by BOTH sides: cards, and chips themselves.
MK8330 has corrected the former, but couldn't have possibly improved the latter.

As MK1869 prototypes already exist, it's finally possible to properly compare CMI8330 vs. ES1869...
So, is MK1869 actually better than MK8330 in terms of sound quality (noise, frequency response, distortion, etc.) ?

Does it matter if the MK8330 card is no longer sold though? It's an academically interesting comparison, but what would the point be since it's not like they are going to re-design the card for a different chipset at this point in development. There are plenty of recorded samples of music / audio on both chipsets around here and Youtube for comparisons that, at least in my mind, show that they are similar enough that it doesn't really matter... If this were a flagship product I could see a level of hair splitting, but the ES186x series chipsets are wildly popular for their value and broad compatibility in addition to well regarded audio quality (among 90's era sound devices) so it doesn't seem like they need to "prove" it's suitability in a modern budget sound card?

I think price is the biggest open question particularly with the expanded feature set, since the MK8330 was really focused on being a "modern budget" card I'm curious where this will land with the additional cost of the wavetable chipset. If using new/NOS chips reduces their BOM/labor costs if they'd previously had to scavenge stock from donor cards these could be surprisingly affordable, particularly given the fairly clean design in the photos. Maybe they'll consider doing a lite version without the expansion headers/USB or ESS wavetable option down the road to keep the design more price competitive with something like the PicoGUS (which it could also compliment nicely).

Grzyb wrote on 2024-09-05, 13:49:

So, is MK1869 actually better than MK8330 in terms of sound quality (noise, frequency response, distortion, etc.) ?

My 2 cents...

I would be very surprised f it wasn't... Having used both chipsets extensively and knowing Marmes quality work there's no doubt in my mind. The PCB / design work is top notch for both but the CMI8330 was a much lower budget type of chipset than the ESS, so naturally, the ESS solution will be superior in sound quality. Feature wise, the CMI with WSS and SB16 might be more interesting, but the MK1869 also includes the very nice ESS690/692. So this is a very interesting addition, for anyone who can't afford the more feature rich higher end Orpheus II.

keropi wrote on 2024-09-04, 17:21:

bertrammatrix wrote on 2024-09-02, 18:03:

Nice work! Finally ESS gets the remake it deserves. It was always a shame that so little of the cards with their chips came with one of their IMHO fantastic wavetables, perhaps they were too late to the table by the time they came out.

Is anything implemented any differently then ESs would have it on the SB / mixer side of things? I could never get sfx from Transport Tycoon Deluxe (dos version) on any ESS cards set to SBpro for whatever reason, makes me wonder if it would work on this card or if it is some sort of bug with how ESS chips handle something (literally only game I've ever had an unsolvable problem with on an ESs)

I just saw your other thread and tested with the game but I found no issues - I set the game to use SBPRO and I get both music and sfx in game - I spammed building tracks and dynamites a bazillion times and I always got the sfx playing without issues.
I have to add though that there is nothing extra on the MK1869 that would make it work with TTD while other cards do not...

Thanks for that...now I can be driven to insanity some more 😁

Was this on dos or windows xx? Right, so the MK just works with the generic drivers then