LowSpec486 wrote on 2024-07-14, 17:11:

In those pictures, the US keyboard has 47 character-keys, while the Spanish keyboard has 48-character keys. Therefore, what will happen regarding the "eñe" character after you load the Spanish keymap onto the physical US keyboard is anyone's guess. That's why I'm asking for it to be tested by a fellow forum member who owns a Pocket386.

As I already mentioned... such new key is scancode 56 which is "< >" in the spanish layout and has no equivalent in the US layout. That's the only key that you will physically not have when using a US layout, since US "ANSI" keyboards have one key less than most European layouts.
This is nothing specific to the Pocket386 -- but rather common in all PCs.
"ñ" in spanish layout is scancode 27 which is "; :" in US layout. After loading keyb sp, and pressing ";", the keyboard will emit scancode 27 which keyb will translate to "ñ". But you will then have no physical key for "< >". Simply because no key will generate scancode 56.
Better get well versed in the so-called US international layout... or maybe find a way to reflash the keyboard controller so that it gives different scancodes for the two "| \" keys.

Useful website with scancodes and common layouts: https://kbdlayout.info/KBDUS/scancodes+names? … ngement=ANSI104 vs https://kbdlayout.info/KBDSP/scancodes+names . Search the US layout for the "key name" as you see it on the US keyboard/pocket386 (e.g. ";"), which will give you the scancode in big numbers (in this case, 27). Then go to the layout you're interested in, and search for the same scancode value (27), and you'll find the corresponding key name in that layout (for sp, 27 would be "ñ").

javispedro1 wrote on 2024-07-14, 17:22:

As I already mentioned... such new key is scancode 56 which is "< >" in the spanish layout and has no equivalent in the US layout. That's the only key that you will physically not have when using a US layout, since US "ANSI" keyboards have one key less than most European layouts.
This is nothing specific to the Pocket386 -- but rather common in all PCs.

Ok, but as you mentioned there is something specific to the Pocket386 keyboard: it has two physical keys for " | \ ".

Could someone try what happens in a Pocket 386 unit with those two identical physical keys " | \ " in EDIT.COM after booting DOS with the CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT lines I posted in a previous post? Probably they will produce the same scancode, or perhaps not?

LowSpec486 wrote on 2024-07-14, 17:38:

Ok, but as you mentioned there is something specific to the Pocket386 keyboard: it has two physical keys for " | \ ".

They will produce the same scancode. Otherwise in stock DOS hitting one would produce the wrong key, or worse, no key at all.
Keyb only changes the mapping from scancodes to visible chars. It cannot change scancode numbers. In your test both keys will produce "ç". You can predict this using the webpage I linked to you before.
To see any Pocket386 specifics you'd need a multimeter and capture the signals from the keyboard. As the keyboard controller is a 8051 µc ( STC8G2K32S2 ), it would in theory be possible to reprogram it to do whatever you want.
But from the PC/DOS side of things, it is a standard ANSI US keyboard and giving standard AT keycodes (it has to be, since you can plug you own keyboards through the dongle).

(Looking at the schematic) Reprogramming the 8051 could also bring some interesting features other than using new keys, such as being able to read the battery level from DOS, or adjusting some OSD parameters from DOS.

New benchmark idea: is the keyboard controller of the pocket386 more powerful than the 386 itself?

javispedro1 wrote on 2024-07-14, 17:51:

They will produce the same scancode. Otherwise in stock DOS hitting one would produce the wrong key, or worse, no key at all.

But do they produce the same scan code, or the manufacturer just doubled the "\ |" key in the US keyboard because they had nothing else to put into that 48 key-slot in the US keyboard?

This should be tested on a real unit.

LowSpec486 wrote on 2024-07-14, 18:12:

But do they produce the same scan code, or the manufacturer just doubled the "\ |" key in the US keyboard because they had nothing else to put into that 48 key-slot in the US keyboard?

Both. He may have replicated the "label" on the key because there was nothing else to put, but when it came back to programming the 8051 both physical keys map to the same (PC side) scancode. Otherwise one of them would not work or produce the wrong glyph on stock DOS. (In theory there could be BIOS shenanigans, but this would break external standard keyboards).

Just testing to see if both "| \" keys both produce "\" is enough to confirm that. I presume someone would have already mentioned it if they didn't. mkeyb /t from freeDOS also prints raw scancodes if you are curious.

It's also interesting that the Book8088 has an entirely different layout. I didn't notice Fn/Ctrl have been swapped.

javispedro1 wrote on 2024-07-14, 17:51:

But from the PC/DOS side of things, it is a standard ANSI US keyboard and giving standard AT keycodes (it has to be, since you can plug you own keyboards through the dongle).

Which reminds me... bit of a sidebar... The bluetooth shutter dongles you can get for Android and iPhone, and sometimes the same thing is built into the handle of selfie sticks if they take a battery, mostly they look like a key fob. Those connect as a HID device and each button is a keypress. Inside they have the BT chip and a keyboard ROM. Possibly there are wired HID device possibilities on pins of these chips, and also the KB ROM could be replaced, or bodge wired to spit out two alternate key presses... in other words, it's a two key keyboard, and the electronics are small.. it might not be un-possible, but it might be un-elegant and un-simple, to hack one of those in to provide two extra keys which could be brought out to suitable alternate switch hardware you can fit somewhere on it.... potentially easier to find a late PS/2 keyboard with tiny circuit board and hook that up to extra keys.

BitWrangler wrote on 2024-07-14, 18:23:

Which reminds me... bit of a sidebar... The bluetooth shutter dongles you can get for Android and iPhone, and sometimes the same thing is built into the handle of selfie sticks if they take a battery, mostly they look like a key fob. Those connect as a HID device and each button is a keypress. Inside they have the BT chip and a keyboard ROM. Possibly there are wired HID device possibilities on pins of these chips, and also the KB ROM could be replaced, or bodge wired to spit out two alternate key presses... in other words, it's a two key keyboard, and the electronics are small.. it might not be un-possible, but it might be un-elegant and un-simple, to hack one of those in to provide two extra keys which could be brought out to suitable alternate switch hardware you can fit somewhere on it.... potentially easier to find a late PS/2 keyboard with tiny circuit board and hook that up to extra keys.

In a bit of a tangent too, one of the things I would like to do (if I ever decide to get one 😀 ) is do add a Thinkpad-style Trackpoint to the chassis somewhere. I have some spares. These already talk PS/2 so electrically connecting such a thing would be as easy as finding the MSCLK & MSDATA lines in the interior of the p386.
However, the pocket386's chassis is much smaller compared to the book8088 and there's little space for the actual trackpoint nub...

javispedro1 wrote on 2024-07-14, 18:32:

In a bit of a tangent too, one of the things I would like to do (if I ever decide to get one 😀 ) is do add a Thinkpad-style Trackpoint to the chassis somewhere. I have some spares. These already talk PS/2 so electrically connecting such a thing would be as easy as finding the MSCLK & MSDATA lines in the interior of the p386.
However, the pocket386's chassis is much smaller compared to the book8088 and there's little space for the actual trackpoint nub...

It might be easier to connect to the external port and find a way to clip it to the side of the case.

javispedro1 wrote on 2024-07-14, 15:18:

You'll have a "ñ" key (remapped from US "; :") , however you'll be missing the SP layout's "< >" key (scancode 56) which is not present at all in the classic/"ANSI" US layouts.

After pondering this, I've decided that I'll be better served by having the glyphs in the physical keys matching the loaded keyboard map, and also by not giving up the "< >" key - especially as I want the device to work as a small-but-powerful word processing machine (WordPerfect 5.1 will be my tool of choice).

So I bought a slightly used Acer Aspire One netbook for 40 EUR instead, with a built-in Spanish keyboard. Not vintage, but obsolete enough that it's a sure thing there will be no Instagram nor Facebook time sinking on it. (Plus it has a goddammed RJ45 ethernet port, and wifi.)

LowSpec486 wrote on 2024-07-16, 16:11:

After pondering this, I've decided that I'll be better served by having the glyphs in the physical keys matching the loaded keyb […]
Show full quote

javispedro1 wrote on 2024-07-14, 15:18:

You'll have a "ñ" key (remapped from US "; :") , however you'll be missing the SP layout's "< >" key (scancode 56) which is not present at all in the classic/"ANSI" US layouts.

After pondering this, I've decided that I'll be better served by having the glyphs in the physical keys matching the loaded keyboard map, and also by not giving up the "< >" key - especially as I want the device to work as a small-but-powerful word processing machine (WordPerfect 5.1 will be my tool of choice).

So I bought a slightly used Acer Aspire One netbook for 40 EUR instead, with a built-in Spanish keyboard. Not vintage, but obsolete enough that it's a sure thing there will be no Instagram nor Facebook time sinking on it. (Plus it has a goddammed RJ45 ethernet port, and wifi.)

The attachment Screenshot_20240716_174702_Wallapop.jpg is no longer available

Those are alright... if you see spare keyboard assemblies going cheap though, grab a couple, the keyboards last maybe a year of daily typing use. I've got one nice acer and two not nice acers which I have been too cheap to buy replacement keyboards for, though I haven't looked for a while, they were worth more than the machine last time I looked 5 years ago.

If you were planning to use something like Libre Office, you might have to go to quite an old version. They forced 1024x768 minimum resolution sometime after about 2010, might even have been a bit before. You will only have 600 pixels height I think.

If you put DOSbox on them, you typically get up to about slow pentium speeds. But I haven't particularly optimised anything when trying it, usually going for 486 stuff which they run okay. I think they can run DOS native, and should be able to be APCI throttled. There were custom Amiga emulation and OS/API compatible distributions for them, so you could maybe try Final Copy or Final Writer for a wordproc too, not sure how much spanish localisation would be available on that path though.

BitWrangler wrote on 2024-07-16, 17:23:

Those are alright... if you see spare keyboard assemblies going cheap though, grab a couple, the keyboards last maybe a year of daily typing use.

Thanks for the warning about the keyboard durability on those Acer netbooks. But at 40 EUR the whole device, I think I will not worry about spares - yet.

About the writing software, it's going to be WordPerfect 5.1 running on DOS, hosted on DOSBox, running on Debian 6.0 - just because I already have such a setup working on another obsolete bulky laptop of the same time period, and I will CloneZilla-transfer that setup as-is into the Acer netbook. I expect once I load the proprietary wifi firmware, everything will work (video, audio, ethernet, etc.). Vintage Debian I know well enough.

WordPerfect 5.1 is the real deal, and I make no compromises. 🤣.

I'm new to the forum and have joined because I've just bought one of these Pocket 386 devices. I'm hoping to write some code FOR the Pocket 386 ON the Pocket 386. I wonder if Borland Turbo C++ V4.5 would work or Visual C++ 1.52 both of which I have on CDROM. Maybe I should start a new topic when it arrives? Meanwhile, I'm having a good read about what others are using. Thanks.

PS I started my PC journey on a self built PC that had an AMD 486DX4-100 around 1994. I'm a beginner C and BASIC programmer. I dabble in C code for microcontrollers (Arduino, PIC, ESP32).

Just for your info djsb, my unit (which came with the DOS/Win311 image) came with a few applications and programming utilities pre-installed including Turbo C 2.0 and a copy of Turbo Basic as well as QBASIC so you'd have a few options right off the bat for programming in DOS. But given Windows 3.1 works great on the unit, I think Turbo C++ and Visual C++ should work fine.

The unit also comes with a little breakout board with PS2 (KB&Mouse) + VGA, for frustration-free programming I'd definitely recommend picking up an external PS2 keyboard and mouse. I picked up an old compact Cherry unit and an optical Logitech PS/2 mouse, and it makes life a lot easier than using the built in keyboard and fairly terrible built-in mouse emulation.

Given the built-in Cirrus Logic video adapter is SVGA and can push up to 1024x768 in Windows, I was considering getting a VGA to HDMI adapter or similar and getting it hooked up to a bigger screen for a more comfortable programming experience. I've been to get to grips with early Windows programming and picked up the Charles Petzold 'Programming Windows 3.1' book a few years ago, feels like this might be a good excuse to try and work through it on period correct hardware!

On that last point, I saw a few people earlier on the thread saying their units came with a GD5428 or 5429 which can in theory do 1280x1024, though the schematic on the website has a GD5422 mentioned. When I run MSD on my unit it reports a Video BIOS for a 'CL-GD520x/5420', so maybe there is some unit to unit variation. SysChk on my unit also says the same and that max supported res is 1024x768.

Thanks for your reply. I've had the Petzold book for a while and also found a copy of "PC INTERN-The encyclopedia of system programming" sixth edition by Tischer and Jennrich that covers system programming in Windows 95 in one of my boxes. Just bought a copy of "Tricks of the Game Programming Gurus"-Andre LaMothe as well. So I should be all set for a few years of tinkering. Just hope the machine lasts that long.

PS I also use BCX occasionally which is a BASIC to C code converter which with a bit of persuasion (some change of BASIC syntax) can translate QBASIC into C code (PellesC compiler) for a Windows 10/11 machine. I'll be trying it on the Pocket 386 as well. Got a PS2 keyboard already so just got to get a PS2 mouse.

Just hope the machine lasts that long.

This is definitely a concern! It's put together well enough but obviously built to a price and many components are scavenged. I definitely wouldn't put much long term faith in the CF card, from its appearance it has definitely lived a past life - though I somewhat appreciate the upcycling aspect of the device, at least these older components are getting a new lease of life.

Thanks for the book tips, I've ordered a copy of both. Now I just need to find the time...

So I got one at the end even if only to play with the CH375/USB port as an excuse.

OSes that I have been able to boot: DOS 6.2x , Win95, FreeDOS, OS/2 Warp 3 (needs latest fixup for large disks), NT 3.51 (unusably slow) , Debian slink/2.1
(Except for NT, which is simply too picky, all of them launched from OS/2 boot manager on a single 8GB CF card)

I am also curious if anyone has managed to get 800x480 @ 16:9 resolution from any OS on the internal LCD.
Under Linux/XF86, I can configure the card to use 800x480 framebuffer but the LCD firmware auto-setup thinks it is "640x480", and while I need more testing the LCD firmware is quite clearly doubling some pixels horizontally resulting in a blurry mess (the framebuffer is definitely 800x480). Maybe further fiddling with the modeline can make it work...
I can at least get 800x600 and the LCD firmware seems fine with it.
On Windows, even 800x600 does not work -- the VGA card side works, but the LCD firmware fails to recognize the mode at all and just keeps blinking.

Ah, I would like to get my hands on the source of the LCD controller firmware...
I have already managed to crash it multiple times, resulting in corrupted screen & OSD (fortunately power cycle fixes it).

Can ANY CF card be used as long as it has a 2GB partition or does it have to be a 2GB one? Any particular type? Thanks.

I am using a 8GB CF card and it works. Trascend FWIW but everything I've thrown at it worked (I have no CF larger than 8GB).

The BIOS supports "LBA" as in ECHS (but as far as I can see not the int13 LBA extensions) , so disks larger than 8GiB will not see full capacity from any DOS.

LowSpec486 wrote on 2024-07-16, 16:11:

So I bought a slightly used Acer Aspire One netbook for 40 EUR instead, with a built-in Spanish keyboard. Not vintage, but obsolete enough...

The older 32bit Atom model? That's getting pretty vintage; the architecture's like a massive stack of pentium MMX cores if I recall.