VOGONS


Reply 60 of 79, by ux-3

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Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2024-06-26, 06:58:

I have a separate guide for SBLive cards. Some of the Creative utilities from the Audigy driver pack won't work with the SBLive. Don't remember which ones off hand, but I think it was the EAX Console and Speaker Settings, possibly something else too. That's why I have a different version of those utilities in my SBLive driver pack.

I have seen that. I just hoped it might work right away, and it did. Many thanks for the elaborate Instruction. At some points, things went differently, probably because I didn't have the true SB0350 but the SBo358.

It seemed to me that Live worked a bit better in pure DOS than the Audigy2ZS. Is that so?

I guess I would be able to disable the SOLO in win98se and use a SB 10k card. When booting to plain DOS, I could activate the Solo1, which seems to do a better job in DOS. I just have to juggle the IRQs at the right places. For the Solo to work on IRQ 5, it has to get that IRQ. The SBpro Emu doesn't really seem to care where the Audugy sits, as long as IRQ 5 itself is still free. Not sure if I ever need this scenario.

Retro PC warning: The things you own end up owning you.

Reply 61 of 79, by Joseph_Joestar

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ux-3 wrote on 2024-06-26, 07:25:

I have seen that. I just hoped it might work right away, and it did. Many thanks for the elaborate Instruction.

You're welcome! 😀

At some points, things went differently, probably because I didn't have the true SB0350 but the SBo358.

It seemed to me that Live worked a bit better in pure DOS than the Audigy2ZS. Is that so?

When using my driver packs, SBLive and Audigy cards should behave mostly the same in terms of DOS compatibility. However, OEM versions of the cards (such as your Dell SB0358) may have unique issues of their own. At least, that's what I've seen reported by other people on this forum and elsewhere. I don't own any OEM Audigy cards, so I can't speak to that myself.

Additionally, all Audigy cards use one extra IRQ for the FireWire port, compared to SBLive cards which don't have that. Sometimes, this extra IRQ can conflict with other devices on the system, which may cause issues.

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / YMF719 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 2100+ / ECS K7VTA3 / Voodoo3 / Audigy2 / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3400+ / Asus K8V-MX / 5900XT / Audigy2
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Reply 62 of 79, by Kruton 9000

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It really all depends on the goal you set for yourself. If you want to run as many games as possible in a single build, Pentium 3-era hardware with an ISA is the best option. If you want to run ALL games in MAXIMUM quality, then you will not get away from building MANY builds: in those days there were no generally accepted standards, games were often programmed tied to a specific hardware. There are so many challenges that you will have to overcome:
1. DOS games need sound. There are many standards, many synthesis implementations, many sound cards, but none of them can provide 100% compatibility and quality. You will need several cards and even several builds. ISA slots can help you a lot but generally ISA cards are also noisy and can't provide digital output like later PCI cards.
2. If you are interested in DOS, then you need to consider the compatibility of your video card. None of them are 100% compatible. Also later cards may have problems with performance in DOS.
3. To play early DOS CGA games with artifact colors, you not only need a compatible card, but also a composite monitor.
4. Speed ​​sensitivity existed right up until the early 2000s. Late games are less affected, but still. Slowing down the processor is not such a difficult task, but not all slowdown methods ensure smooth and glitch-free gaming. Sometimes theory differs from practice.
5. There were several APIs for 3d rendering. Some games look better on one and some look better on the other. In addition to the objective difference, there is an individual perception (some people like software rendering, some like Voodoo, and some like Matrox Mystic).
6. Sometimes drivers break compatibility or stability, even if the hardware itself has no problems. For example late GeForce drivers for Windows 98.
7. Small nuances like stars in Thief 2 or fonts in NFS Porsche Unleashed.
8. Latest games compatible with Windows 9x not only work in Windows 2000 or XP, but can also take advantage of the dual-threading capabilities of a Pentium 4 with hyperthreading, Pentium D and Core 2, even if the video card is the same. You must decide where your borders of the 9x era will be.
9. Windows 98 without hacks has problems with memory greater than 512 MB. At the same time, later games compatible with 98 may require more. Millennium works fine with 1 GB, but it has more problems with DOS.
10. If your goal is to also cover Windows 3.1 or OS/2, then you will also have to select hardware compatible with them.
11. Older games definitely need a CRT monitor to look right. However, newer games can take advantage of the digital output and look great at the quality LCD monitor's native resolution.
12. There are differences in dithering and antialiasing between different video cards. Some may look better, but work slower or be less compatible.

Compromises, compromises, compromises... They will always be there. Only you decide which ones you are ready to accept. Collecting 10 assemblies for retro games is also a compromise. You need space for them, money and time to maintain them. Using of software and hardware emulators, different adapters, modern retro hardware replicas, wrappers, unofficial patches can help you a lot but it's still a compromise.

As a conclusion: fast ISA-less builds compatible with Windows 98 have their niche: they run a significant part of games from the late 90s - early 2000s in maximum quality. No more no less. For someone, this may be the main everyday build. An important advantage will be the greater reliability and simplicity of this hardware compared to older ones. For some, such build may be pointless at all.

Last edited by Kruton 9000 on 2024-06-26, 09:30. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 63 of 79, by ux-3

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Kruton 9000 wrote on 2024-06-26, 08:18:

8. Latest games compatible with Windows 9x not only work in Windows 2000 or XP, but can also take advantage of the dual-threading capabilities of a Pentium 4 with hyperthreading, Pentium D and Core 2, even if the video card is the same. You must decide where your borders of the 9x era will be.

Interesting. I was so far under the assumption that WIN98 only supports one CPU. That is why I do all my current testing on a single core Celeron C2D. No thermal grease required to stay under 40°C. What will Win98 do, when it sees a dual core C2D? Use all cache? Treat as if hyper threading? I still have an E4500 that can run with 3 MHz.

9. Windows 98 without hacks has problems with memory greater than 512 MB.

There are Win95/98 games that don't install with 512MB. Was it Gunship2?

11. Older games definitely need a CRT monitor to look right.

I don't know. I spend too many hours in front of them to ever want them back.

Compromises, compromises, compromises... They will always be there. Only you decide which ones you are ready to take. Collecting 10 assemblies for retro games is also a compromise.

I have reached 5, and already, I would like to make it less.

fast ISA-less builds compatible with Windows 98 ... An important advantage will be the greater reliability and simplicity of this hardware compared to older ones.

As I personally don't need a yellowing Baby AT case to enjoy this hobby, I do value ATX and the 'new' standardized connectivity it brings.

Retro PC warning: The things you own end up owning you.

Reply 64 of 79, by Kruton 9000

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ux-3 wrote on 2024-06-26, 09:25:
Kruton 9000 wrote on 2024-06-26, 08:18:

8. Latest games compatible with Windows 9x not only work in Windows 2000 or XP, but can also take advantage of the dual-threading capabilities of a Pentium 4 with hyperthreading, Pentium D and Core 2, even if the video card is the same. You must decide where your borders of the 9x era will be.

Interesting. I was so far under the assumption that WIN98 only supports one CPU. That is why I do all my current testing on a single core Celeron C2D. No thermal grease required to stay under 40°C. What will Win98 do, when it sees a dual core C2D? Use all cache? Treat as if hyper threading? I still have an E4500 that can run with 3 MHz.

I mean that late Windows 98 games can work in Windows XP without issues and take advantage of second thread. In Windows 98 second core/thread isn't working (not using better to say). Though 1 core of Core2 Duo is still faster than 1 core of Celeron because of faster bus and more cash. This also applies to Windows 9x. E4500 will work nicely.

9. Windows 98 without hacks has problems with memory greater than 512 MB.

There are Win95/98 games that don't install with 512MB. Was it Gunship2?

DOOM 3 is technically compatible with 98. It can be very demanding with high quality settings. But do you need to play it on Windows 98 PC? This question is relevant for many games from 2000s.

Reply 65 of 79, by ux-3

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Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2024-06-26, 07:43:

When using my driver packs, SBLive and Audigy cards should behave mostly the same in terms of DOS compatibility.

On first glance, in a DOS window, they did. Do they behave the same when it comes to MIDI? Or does one card has better MIDI abilities than the other? Do they both provide MIDI in pure DOS? Your instructions suggested this for the Audugy 2 ZS.

However, OEM versions of the cards (such as your Dell SB0358) may have unique issues of their own. At least, that's what I've seen reported by other people on this forum and elsewhere. I don't own any OEM Audigy cards, so I can't speak to that myself.

I hope not. According to what I found, the key issue is a different hardware ID, which causes the creative setup to find no card. If the ID is added in the software list (as you may have done with the Live!), it supposedly proceeds happily.
The card gladly refuses to work when win98 decides for SB16 not to get an IRQ. But there is no driver warning sign, it just takes an alternative configuration without IRQ. One may not even notice this, because one wouldn't know better. This would already explain widely different experiences.

Additionally, all Audigy cards use one extra IRQ for the FireWire port, compared to SBLive cards which don't have that. Sometimes, this extra IRQ can conflict with other devices on the system, which may cause issues.

This is a good point. So far, I used the printer IRQ to convince the mainboard to put the other stuff elsewhere. Then I "conflict-assigned" the IRQ to SB16 too, and removed the printer IRQ. It worked twice. But I am not sure if I can clear 5&7 that way, if totally useless ports steal IRQs. What happened to disable-jumpers?

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Reply 66 of 79, by Joseph_Joestar

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ux-3 wrote on 2024-06-26, 11:06:

On first glance, in a DOS window, they did. Do they behave the same when it comes to MIDI? Or does one card has better MIDI abilities than the other? Do they both provide MIDI in pure DOS? Your instructions suggested this for the Audugy 2 ZS.

You do get General MIDI support in pure DOS, both on SBLive and Audigy cards. Note that they use ECW sets for that, and those sound pretty bland. To fully utilize SBLive and Audigy cards, it's better to play DOS games from within Win9x, so that you can load soundfonts. General MIDI in DOS games will sound much better that way.

As for FM synth, both cards use the same emulation method, which doesn't sound great. It isn't nearly as good as genuine OPL3 (found on Yamaha cards) or ESFM (found on ESS cards).

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / YMF719 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 2100+ / ECS K7VTA3 / Voodoo3 / Audigy2 / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3400+ / Asus K8V-MX / 5900XT / Audigy2
PC#4: i5-3570K / MSI Z77A-G43 / GTX 970 / X-Fi

Reply 67 of 79, by Shponglefan

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Kruton 9000 wrote on 2024-06-26, 08:18:

If you want to run as many games as possible in a single build, Pentium 3-era hardware with an ISA is the best option.

I think I posted in the earlier in the thread, but is there any advantage to a P3 with ISA versus a P4 with ISA? The latter obviously has a higher performance ceiling. Is there any benefit to sacrificing that top-end performance and using a P3 setup instead?

edited to add:

Decided to start a separate thread on this topic: Pentium 3 with ISA versus Pentium 4 with ISA?

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Reply 68 of 79, by Gmlb256

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Shponglefan wrote on 2024-06-25, 22:13:

At any rate, it's down to personal preference. I prefer software Quake at high resolutions over GLQuake. The former looks crisper and less blurry than the latter.

I find GLQuake inferior to the software renderer. Besides looking blurry, it lacks fullbright for textures, has crappy looking skies and mediocre underwater effects.

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Reply 69 of 79, by ux-3

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Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2024-06-26, 11:25:

As for FM synth, both cards use the same emulation method, which doesn't sound great. It isn't nearly as good as genuine OPL3 (found on Yamaha cards) or ESFM (found on ESS cards).

I had the 'pleasure' of getting them to run FM on a game. I'd prefer the ESS Solo for that any day.

Last edited by ux-3 on 2024-06-26, 15:52. Edited 1 time in total.

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Reply 70 of 79, by Shponglefan

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Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2024-06-26, 05:36:

But doesn't WinQuake provide that, while being easier to run than DOS Quake on newer (non-ISA) platforms?

I'm not sure TBH. I don't think I've ever tried WinQuake.

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Reply 71 of 79, by ux-3

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ux-3 wrote on 2024-06-25, 22:51:

I have tried Audigy 2ZS, Live! 5.1 and ESS SOLO-1
The results are mixed. I took "Hexen" as an example of a game series on your list. The only card that will run it in pure Dos was the Solo, BUT without digital audio. The SBs just froze. The SB cards made up for that in windowed DOS, where they rendered digital audio too, while the Solo wasn't.

Odd! When I put the Audigy 2 ZS back in today, it did all test games OK that it didn't work with yesterday. Maybe me or her needed some sleep.

Retro PC warning: The things you own end up owning you.

Reply 72 of 79, by ux-3

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Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2024-06-24, 12:54:

If you want more than that (512MB), you'll need to use a third-party patch, such as the one made by R. Loew. These work great up to 2 GB RAM. But going higher than that may cause weird performance issues, even with the patch installed. It might depend on the chipset used though.

Are there known issues with this loew patch (quite an extensive patch set really)? In order to use dual channel memory, I would have to install 1 GB. My 256 MB sticks refuse to work in DC mode.

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Reply 73 of 79, by Joseph_Joestar

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ux-3 wrote on 2024-06-29, 07:22:

Are there known issues with this loew patch (quite an extensive patch set really)? In order to use dual channel memory, I would have to install 1 GB. My 256 MB sticks refuse to work in DC mode.

R. Loew's patches work great, but you need to follow his instructions to the letter.

For example, if you have 2 GB RAM, his PATCHMEM needs to be applied after the first restart during Win98 installation, otherwise you'll get a system crash. His readme files and manuals explain the procedure in detail.

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / YMF719 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 2100+ / ECS K7VTA3 / Voodoo3 / Audigy2 / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3400+ / Asus K8V-MX / 5900XT / Audigy2
PC#4: i5-3570K / MSI Z77A-G43 / GTX 970 / X-Fi

Reply 74 of 79, by ElectroSoldier

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What is it exactly that you are putting into the ISA slots on these machines that make ISA so fundamental?

Reply 75 of 79, by ux-3

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ElectroSoldier wrote on 2024-06-29, 10:25:

What is it exactly that you are putting into the ISA slots on these machines that make ISA so fundamental?

I would highly suspect 'soundcards'.At least that is what I would put in there.

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Reply 76 of 79, by ElectroSoldier

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ux-3 wrote on 2024-06-29, 12:54:
ElectroSoldier wrote on 2024-06-29, 10:25:

What is it exactly that you are putting into the ISA slots on these machines that make ISA so fundamental?

I would highly suspect 'soundcards'.At least that is what I would put in there.

I thought that was more for DOS and Windows 95 machines, not Windows 98.

Reply 77 of 79, by Shponglefan

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ElectroSoldier wrote on 2024-06-29, 15:04:
ux-3 wrote on 2024-06-29, 12:54:
ElectroSoldier wrote on 2024-06-29, 10:25:

What is it exactly that you are putting into the ISA slots on these machines that make ISA so fundamental?

I would highly suspect 'soundcards'.At least that is what I would put in there.

I thought that was more for DOS and Windows 95 machines, not Windows 98.

It can be both. Especially if one is dual booting DOS and Win 98.

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Reply 78 of 79, by Jo22

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ElectroSoldier wrote on 2024-06-29, 15:04:
ux-3 wrote on 2024-06-29, 12:54:
ElectroSoldier wrote on 2024-06-29, 10:25:

What is it exactly that you are putting into the ISA slots on these machines that make ISA so fundamental?

I would highly suspect 'soundcards'.At least that is what I would put in there.

I thought that was more for DOS and Windows 95 machines, not Windows 98.

I had moved my PAS16 to a Pentium 75 running Windows 98SE in ~2000 or so.

It was my private computer, not the family's Windows 98SE PC.

That was a Pentium III 733 MHz with 128MB and a Geforce graphics card (AGP), PCI slots and an lonely ISA slot.
In 2000, this was one of the fastest PCs available.

Funnily, the integrated sound card on that Pentium III motherboard was an ISA card.
It had a SB16 compatibility option in CMOS Setup, with ISA resources.

Anyway, what's positive/notable on Windows 98SE was its legacy friendliness.
It had drivers for a lot of ISA cards, including my PAS16 and the SCSI controller I think.

What I mean to say is that Windows 98SE was very compatible to anything Pentium.

It had way less issues than Windows 95, which had required lots of patches to be installed to be on a similar level.

So it made sense to install Windows 98SE on older hardware.
The better stability and better soft- and hardware compatibility were worth a memory and HDD upgrade.

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Reply 79 of 79, by ux-3

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Jo22 wrote on 2024-06-29, 15:17:
What I mean to say is that Windows 98SE was very compatible to anything Pentium. […]
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What I mean to say is that Windows 98SE was very compatible to anything Pentium.

It had way less issues than Windows 95, which had required lots of patches to be installed to be on a similar level.

So it made sense to install Windows 98SE on older hardware.
The better stability and better soft- and hardware compatibility were worth a memory and HDD upgrade.

I second that. That is why at some point, I threw away Win95. Either Dos 6.x or Win98se. Haven't yet regretted it.

Retro PC warning: The things you own end up owning you.