Shponglefan wrote on 2024-06-25, 21:49:

supercordo wrote on 2024-06-25, 21:47:

Simple answer, ISA is only needed for DOS gaming. ISA is pointless after 233Mhz.

There are DOS games that benefit from >233 MHz systems. Not pointless at all.

What games that dont also run on windows?

supercordo wrote on 2024-06-25, 21:50:

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-06-25, 21:49:

supercordo wrote on 2024-06-25, 21:47:

Simple answer, ISA is only needed for DOS gaming. ISA is pointless after 233Mhz.

There are DOS games that benefit from >233 MHz systems. Not pointless at all.

What games that dont also run on windows?

That depends what you mean by running on Windows. Are we talking about running DOS games via Windows 9X DOS mode? Or are we talking about games with native Windows modes (e.g. GLQuake, WinQuake)?

To be clear, I'm talking about running games in native DOS.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-06-25, 21:54:

supercordo wrote on 2024-06-25, 21:50:

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-06-25, 21:49:

There are DOS games that benefit from >233 MHz systems. Not pointless at all.

What games that dont also run on windows?

That depends what you mean by running on Windows. Are we talking about running DOS games via Windows 9X DOS mode? Or are we talking about games with native Windows modes (e.g. GLQuake, WinQuake)?

To be clear, I'm talking about running games in native DOS.

Its pointless to play quake in software mode in DOS.

supercordo wrote on 2024-06-25, 22:02:

Its pointless to play quake in software mode in DOS.

Why do you think it's pointless?

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-06-25, 22:03:

supercordo wrote on 2024-06-25, 22:02:

Its pointless to play quake in software mode in DOS.

Why do you think it's pointless?

Any game that doesnt run on an AMD AM5X86 at 160Mhz should be played with a proper 3D card in windows. Unless you're a masochist.

supercordo wrote on 2024-06-25, 22:09:

Any game that doesnt run on an AMD AM5X86 at 160Mhz should be played with a proper 3D card in windows. Unless you're a masochist.

Didn't realize there were rules to this thing. 🤣

At any rate, it's down to personal preference. I prefer software Quake at high resolutions over GLQuake. The former looks crisper and less blurry than the latter.

And there are more DOS games than just Quake that benefit from a faster processor (e.g. the aforementioned Build-engine games).

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-06-25, 21:49:

Depending on your bios, you might be able to manually assign resources to designated PCI slots.

No such luck.
I have tried Audigy 2ZS, Live! 5.1 and ESS SOLO-1
The results are mixed. I took "Hexen" as an example of a game series on your list. The only card that will run it in pure Dos was the Solo, BUT without digital audio. The SBs just froze. The SB cards made up for that in windowed DOS, where they rendered digital audio too, while the Solo wasn't.
I realize, I am not after SBpro type games here anyway.

I am not really convinced by the Audigy yet. Live! seems to work better in pure DOS. And Live! seemed to know better how to charm my bios into getting IRQ 5 free.
I simply plugged the live into the audigy install, and it was recognized right away.
The whole thing is getting more and more interesting. This may be a fast alternative.

supercordo wrote on 2024-06-25, 21:47:

Simple answer, ISA is only needed for DOS gaming. ISA is pointless after 233Mhz.

Not quite , cards like the awe32/64 are pretty well supported by win95 , once you hit win 98 sure , outside some non gaming uses you won't really be using them anymore.

AppleSauce wrote on 2024-06-26, 00:05:

supercordo wrote on 2024-06-25, 21:47:

Simple answer, ISA is only needed for DOS gaming. ISA is pointless after 233Mhz.

Not quite , cards like the awe32/64 are pretty well supported by win95 , once you hit win 98 sure , outside some non gaming uses you won't really be using them anymore.

There's also the TerraTec EWS64 series. It was an high-end ISA soundcard.
Mod4win had supported it, too.

http://www.amoretro.de/2012/02/terratec-ews64 … soundkarte.html

Jo22 wrote on 2024-06-26, 00:12:

There's also the TerraTec EWS64 series. It was an high-end ISA soundcard. Mod4win had supported it, too. […]
Show full quote

AppleSauce wrote on 2024-06-26, 00:05:

supercordo wrote on 2024-06-25, 21:47:

Simple answer, ISA is only needed for DOS gaming. ISA is pointless after 233Mhz.

Not quite , cards like the awe32/64 are pretty well supported by win95 , once you hit win 98 sure , outside some non gaming uses you won't really be using them anymore.

There's also the TerraTec EWS64 series. It was an high-end ISA soundcard.
Mod4win had supported it, too.

http://www.amoretro.de/2012/02/terratec-ews64 … soundkarte.html

And I'm sure there were a few others , point is there wasn't a switch to pci sound cards overnight , it was a transitional period.

ux-3 wrote on 2024-06-25, 07:03:

Well, I don't even have win95. Are there actually games that only run on Win95?

I meant that era. 95 to 98. If any Windows games are speed sensitive, it's likely they are from this era than 99 onwards. What games do you actually want to play?

Jo22 wrote on 2024-06-25, 09:51:

ux-3 wrote on 2024-06-25, 07:03:

• What are the most demanding 'pure DOS and only pure DOS games'? Will a Pentium mmx @266 be able to run them?

Quite some demanding games I can think of TNG: A Final Unity and Toonstruck.

I'm quite certain that TNG: A Final Unity could run smoothly with Pentium 120MHz + S3 Vision968 + 1080MB HDD + 4x CD-ROM.

A Final Unity is less demanding and more out-of-control-as-soon-as-you-exceed-133MHz... if STFU's demanding, then get off that ISA video'd 486

On DOS, demanding would be:

- a badly optimized Bethesda game from the mid-to-late-90s (Redguard, XCar, Bumout, Battlespire)
- that badly optimized polish fps game that does way too many buffer reads that gets pushed around here as some kind of unreal killer sometimes
- Extreme Assault
- Noctis IV
- Nocash PSX and GBA/DS emulators
- Jane's USNF and ATF at 1024x768 with all the textures on
- Cybermage
- Armored Fist II

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-06-25, 22:13:

At any rate, it's down to personal preference. I prefer software Quake at high resolutions over GLQuake. The former looks crisper and less blurry than the latter.

I also prefer the standard (non-GL) look of Quake. The lighting is much more natural there.

But doesn't WinQuake provide that, while being easier to run than DOS Quake on newer (non-ISA) platforms?

ux-3 wrote on 2024-06-24, 12:10:

[...]

OK, so I guess my question has somewhat shifted after reading all the comments: Is a very fast non ISA Win98se machine capable to cover all of Windows 98? Or will it run into speed issues too? I know there will be ram issues with some games. 256MB should be OK for what I have seen so far.

"All" is a big word. There will always be corner cases and freak compatibility issues.

Instead of working with broad hypotheticals, I'd suggest focusing on specific games that are important to you. Check what they need to run and see if your proposed system will deliver those requirements and not have any known issues with those games.

Most likely a fast Win98 system will run everything you want fine and usually under Win9x too little performance is a bigger issue than too much. If you do have speed-sensitive games, consider that pandering to them will most likely mean dropping speed to the point later, more demanding game won't work well either. I agree with the suggestion of dual-booting your late DOS system with Win9x for those instead - if and only if you actually face that problem, as such games are not common on Win9x.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2024-06-26, 05:36:

But doesn't WinQuake provide that, while being easier to run than DOS Quake on newer (non-ISA) platforms?

As long as those platforms don't involve a Geforce card. 😀 -dibonly is a must.

My testing yesterday brings me to another issue that I don't see mentioned much yet: DirectX version. How do you deal with it in a fast win98 machine? For the Audigy2ZS to work, Joseph demands DX9 install.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2020-01-18, 14:29:

3.2 Run D:\DirectX\dxsetup.exe which will install DirectX 9.0a and restart your computer (if you already have a newer version installed, skip this step)

Now if I remember correctly, DX9 will end some games working. Perhaps I remember this wrong? Do people have dual installs for DX7/DX9? The ESS Solo-1 runs in DX7 just as well.

Oh, and in case Joseph reads this: I have installed a ZS2 DELL using your 3.1 revision, with a few extra steps. When I plug a SB Live! 5.1 SB0100 in it, it was installed right away. If I leave it like that, do I omit features of the SB0100 I would gain from doing a new install with the appropriate CD?

Do people install a Voodoo² SLI setup on a fast Win98se? If the machine is to cover windows 98, it does seem appropriate to me? Especially since 3dfx passed away before XP.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-06-25, 15:13:

The biggest things that add complexity to a build are h/w compatibility and stability. For a Win98 build with an i865 based motherboard, those two aspects are already covered.

From a plain technical point that may well be true. Personally though, I'd say the thing that adds most complexity are 'options' to be considered. In a way, I am almost glad that this 865pe doesn't have any ISA slot, so that I don't have those options. Because then, I would have to consider many options and perhaps test many ISA cards. This way, it is rather easy to arrive at decisions: As I don't own an Aureal card, it boils down to three cards. I could use them single or team a SB with the Solo-1. From personal experience and online reading, I get the same feedback: Solo1 is the best SBpro sounding pci card. And the Live/Audigy 2ZS are among the best in a win98 environment.

kolderman wrote on 2024-06-26, 02:09:

What games do you actually want to play?

I am not really a DOOM/QUAKE fan, though I liked Unreal Tournament. I do have "European Air War" in mind, which was not aging well but got community patched for a very long time. But it lost much of the classic interface, as this conflicted with several changes in drivers, DX, whatever.

dionb wrote on 2024-06-26, 06:08:

I agree with the suggestion of dual-booting your late DOS system with Win9x for those instead - if and only if you actually face that problem, as such games are not common on Win9x.

Not that we miss each other: I am aiming for 3 PCs for all retro gameing. It used to be a 486DX-40, a P3 500-1000 and a recently added ivy i5. The alternative 'new' plan is a Pentium MMX/voodoo1 with hardware slowdown ability, win98@c2d with GF4/voodoo² SLI and Ivy i-5.
I don't want to add but to replace the actually used machines because I hope to get a better overall solution that way.

I can't recall anything dying after a DX9 install. There's a lot of DirectX version myths coming out of misunderstanding driver conflicts,capabilities vs functionality, and API compatibility (leading to common issues like people installing DX7-targeting V2 drivers with DX5 systems because it's a 'dx5 card that needs dx5'). I can't recall any personal DX-induced regressions, but then again i've never had Aureal or any real-mode TSR sound freak setups.

leileilol wrote on 2024-06-26, 06:31:

I can't recall anything dying after a DX9 install. There's a lot of DirectX version myths coming out of misunderstanding driver conflicts,capabilities vs functionality, and API compatibility (leading to common issues like people installing DX7-targeting V2 drivers with DX5 systems because it's a 'dx5 card that needs dx5'). I can't recall any personal DX-induced regressions, but then again i've never had Aureal or any real-mode TSR sound freak setups.

As I said, I am not sure to the cause. I now have the opportunity to test it with "european air wars" and maybe a V2SLI setup too.

ux-3 wrote on 2024-06-26, 06:24:

Now if I remember correctly, DX9 will end some games working. Perhaps I remember this wrong? Do people have dual installs for DX7/DX9? The ESS Solo-1 runs in DX7 just as well.

AFAIK, DirectX > 7 may cause issues with Aureal Vortex 2 cards, if certain driver versions are used. However, I'm not aware of any game that has problems with DX9 specifically, but maybe someone else can chime in.

Oh, and in case Joseph reads this: I have installed a ZS2 DELL using your 3.1 revision, with a few extra steps. When I plug a SB Live! 5.1 SB0100 in it, it was installed right away. If I leave it like that, do I omit features of the SB0100 I would gain from doing a new install with the appropriate CD?

I have a separate guide for SBLive cards. Some of the Creative utilities from the Audigy driver pack won't work with the SBLive. Don't remember which ones off hand, but I think it was the EAX Console and Speaker Settings, possibly something else too. That's why I have a different version of those utilities in my SBLive driver pack.