retep_110 wrote on 2024-06-17, 15:33:

What are your thoughts about the VIA KT 333 family of chipsets?

Had an ASUS A7V333 and it was a great companion (along with DDR SD-RAM) to my GF4Ti4200 and AthlonXP 2200+.

If you're going with a pre-XP Athlon CPU, probably KT333+/DDR/GF4 are already overkill.

edit: Just a quick note that for Win98SE you'll be turning off some BIOS features on this type of motherboard already, and performance on XP was garbage regardless of settings. This system was the reason I originally migrated to Linux and more-or less didn't look back. Same setup running Ubuntu just screamed compared to XP.

retep_110 wrote on 2024-06-17, 15:33:

[...] […]
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[...]

What are your toughts about the VIA KT 333 family of chipsets?

I would be able to get a
Gibabyte GA-7VRXP at a good price.

Last Via SoA chipset to support AGP 2.0 (so allowing 3.3V compatibility if you want to stick the Voodoo in here anyway).

But draws CPU power from 5V line, so you need that beefy 5V PSU...

Plan b would be to get KT 133A mobo The MSI MS-6340.

Which one of these guys would be pick or would you pick?

MS-6340 has a KM133A, not KT - it has integrated VGA, but if you don't use that it's identical to KT133A.

That particular board was infamous for some of the worst caps in the capacitor plague era. If the caps haven't been replaced, assume you will have to. Otherwise same issue as with the KT333: needs heavy 5V line.

leonardo wrote on 2024-06-17, 15:46:

Had an ASUS A7V333 and it was a great companion (along with DDR SD-RAM) to my GF4Ti4200 and AthlonXP 2200+. […]
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retep_110 wrote on 2024-06-17, 15:33:

What are your thoughts about the VIA KT 333 family of chipsets?

Had an ASUS A7V333 and it was a great companion (along with DDR SD-RAM) to my GF4Ti4200 and AthlonXP 2200+.

If you're going with a pre-XP Athlon CPU, probably KT333+/DDR/GF4 are already overkill.

edit: Just a quick note that for Win98SE you'll be turning off some BIOS features on this type of motherboard already, and performance on XP was garbage regardless of settings. This system was the reason I originally migrated to Linux and more-or less didn't look back. Same setup running Ubuntu just screamed compared to XP.

Thanks a lot for the info. If i should get the Gigabyte board I will use a rather high end athlon xp to get the most out of the geforce 4 4200. Which athlon xp cpu would you consider as companion for the Gf4 4200?

quote=dionb post_id=1270322 time=1718648224 user_id=37143]

retep_110 wrote on 2024-06-17, 15:33:

[...] […]
Show full quote

[...]

What are your toughts about the VIA KT 333 family of chipsets?

I would be able to get a
Gibabyte GA-7VRXP at a good price.

Last Via SoA chipset to support AGP 2.0 (so allowing 3.3V compatibility if you want to stick the Voodoo in here anyway).

But draws CPU power from 5V line, so you need that beefy 5V PSU...

Plan b would be to get KT 133A mobo The MSI MS-6340.

Which one of these guys would be pick or would you pick?

MS-6340 has a KM133A, not KT - it has integrated VGA, but if you don't use that it's identical to KT133A.

That particular board was infamous for some of the worst caps in the capacitor plague era. If the caps haven't been replaced, assume you will have to. Otherwise same issue as with the KT333: needs heavy 5V line.
[/quote]

Thanks for providing me with additonal information. I was not aware that that the Ms-6340 was infamous for bad caps. In case i should purchase it I need to find someone who can help to recap it.

I have reconsidered my voodoo plans by the way. i will put the Voodoo 3 back into the p3 800mhz system and I am going to build the upcoming athlon rig to get out the most of the gf4.

So I am more interested in the above mentioned gigabye board and not so much into the ms board.

The final decision has not been made. I will keep looking for other potential interesting VIA mainboards.

Why Via over nForce2? I thought you were concerned about 5V requirements of your PSU... Have you found a reliable one with >>20A on 5V?

it is not like that I have preference for Via. But I have not found any nforce boards at a good price. Via boards seem to be more eccomonical. But if I can find a nforce board at reasonable price I would also go for it.

I was just concerned about finding the right power supply in general because I have heard that picking the right power supply for athlons can be a bit tricky.

When building the athlon system I have to start from the scratch. I need to purchase all the components one by one. Minus the graphics cards I want to use. The gf 4 is already in my collection. So there is no power supply left at home wating for a new home. I have to purchase the power supply with all the other parts.

retep_110 wrote on 2024-06-18, 06:40:

leonardo wrote on 2024-06-17, 15:46:

Had an ASUS A7V333 and it was a great companion (along with DDR SD-RAM) to my GF4Ti4200 and AthlonXP 2200+. […]
Show full quote

retep_110 wrote on 2024-06-17, 15:33:

What are your thoughts about the VIA KT 333 family of chipsets?

Had an ASUS A7V333 and it was a great companion (along with DDR SD-RAM) to my GF4Ti4200 and AthlonXP 2200+.

If you're going with a pre-XP Athlon CPU, probably KT333+/DDR/GF4 are already overkill.

edit: Just a quick note that for Win98SE you'll be turning off some BIOS features on this type of motherboard already, and performance on XP was garbage regardless of settings. This system was the reason I originally migrated to Linux and more-or less didn't look back. Same setup running Ubuntu just screamed compared to XP.

Thanks a lot for the info. If i should get the Gigabyte board I will use a rather high end athlon xp to get the most out of the geforce 4 4200. Which athlon xp cpu would you consider as companion for the Gf4 4200?

Honestly, the 2200+ was what I could afford at the time - I think you should go as high as you can. The GF4 Ti (4200, 4400 and 4600) all scale pretty far. The AthlonXP-M series chips are obviously best as they have lower TDP and are more flexible configuration-wise (can adjust multiplier). With DDR333 memory, you can raise the FSB with some of the lower end mobile chips for an easy overclock and a performance upgrade when using desktop-class cooling. Hence, you won't pay top-dollar for chips that are at the top of the pack. I'd say Thoroughbred and up are good, with Barton being the most desirable. I don't know what the Gigabyte mobo supports, but on the ASUS I had control over voltage, FSB and multiplier selection, etc.

retep_110 wrote on 2024-06-17, 15:33:

What are your toughts about the VIA KT 333 family of chipsets?

Edit - I read KT133 at first. I see you wrote KT333, so I fixed some stuff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_VIA_chipsets
Not all support 333 operation. KT333 only supported faster memory. KT333CE and KT333CF supported the 333 CPU bus.

The most important thing with the Via chipsets from that period was getting the 4-1 driver installed correctly. Install it before before any other 3rd party driver, follow instructions carefully, and if you have problems getting it installed, you can save time by just reformatting starting from scratch rather than wasting time with an uninstall and reinstall. http://www.motherboards.org/files/drivers/444/4in1.htm

The 333MHz bus always struck me as an awkward middle stop with 400Mhz being the place you actually wanted to be to get the best performance per watt, but sometimes availability is 95% of the struggle when it comes to retro computing, and it seems like the 333MHz stuff is much more available. Barton CPU support is also a nice feature to look for.

And as always for this period, be prepared to replace capacitors if necessary. It's not that hard, just takes a couple dollars and a little patience.

leonardo wrote on 2024-06-18, 07:52:

retep_110 wrote on 2024-06-18, 06:40:

leonardo wrote on 2024-06-17, 15:46:

Had an ASUS A7V333 and it was a great companion (along with DDR SD-RAM) to my GF4Ti4200 and AthlonXP 2200+.

If you're going with a pre-XP Athlon CPU, probably KT333+/DDR/GF4 are already overkill.

edit: Just a quick note that for Win98SE you'll be turning off some BIOS features on this type of motherboard already, and performance on XP was garbage regardless of settings. This system was the reason I originally migrated to Linux and more-or less didn't look back. Same setup running Ubuntu just screamed compared to XP.

Thanks a lot for the info. If i should get the Gigabyte board I will use a rather high end athlon xp to get the most out of the geforce 4 4200. Which athlon xp cpu would you consider as companion for the Gf4 4200?

Honestly, the 2200+ was what I could afford at the time - I think you should go as high as you can. The GF4 Ti (4200, 4400 and 4600) all scale pretty far. The AthlonXP-M series chips are obviously best as they have lower TDP and are more flexible configuration-wise (can adjust multiplier). With DDR333 memory, you can raise the FSB with some of the lower end mobile chips for an easy overclock and a performance upgrade when using desktop-class cooling. Hence, you won't pay top-dollar for chips that are at the top of the pack. I'd say Thoroughbred and up are good, with Barton being the most desirable. I don't know what the Gigabyte mobo supports, but on the ASUS I had control over voltage, FSB and multiplier selection, etc.

Thxf or the info. Yes going as high as possible sound like a good advice. Unfortunately Barton is out the questiion according to cpu upgrade.com But it would be possible to get a 2400+, Thoroughbred,.

An alternative for the gigabyte board would be the MSI KT4AV L which would even support Athlon XP 3000+

douglar wrote on 2024-06-18, 12:34:

Edit - I read KT133 at first. I see you wrote KT333, so I fixed some stuff. […]
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retep_110 wrote on 2024-06-17, 15:33:

What are your toughts about the VIA KT 333 family of chipsets?

Edit - I read KT133 at first. I see you wrote KT333, so I fixed some stuff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_VIA_chipsets
Not all support 333 operation. KT333 only supported faster memory. KT333CE and KT333CF supported the 333 CPU bus.

The most important thing with the Via chipsets from that period was getting the 4-1 driver installed correctly. Install it before before any other 3rd party driver, follow instructions carefully, and if you have problems getting it installed, you can save time by just reformatting starting from scratch rather than wasting time with an uninstall and reinstall. http://www.motherboards.org/files/drivers/444/4in1.htm

The 333MHz bus always struck me as an awkward middle stop with 400Mhz being the place you actually wanted to be to get the best performance per watt. Still, sometimes availability is 95% of the struggle when it comes to retro computing, and it seems like the 333MHz stuff is much more available. Barton CPU support is also a nice feature to look for.

And as always for this period, be prepared to replace capacitors if necessary. It's not that hard, just takes a couple dollars and a little patience.

Thx for your very detailed posts about the via chipsets. Yeah that is the basic rule in retro computing you have to take what is available. For some reason the via boards are more widely available and cheaper than the nvida n force boards which would be more interesting from a theoretical point of view.

Speaking about the 400mhz bus I found a MSI KT4AV L which uses the 400 mhz mus.

The MSI board would cost 10 Euro more compared to the Asus board.

Do you think that it would be worth it getting the a KT 400 board over the KT 333 board for just 10 euro more?

retep_110 wrote on 2024-06-18, 18:06:

Do you think that it would be worth it getting the a KT 400 board over the KT 333 board for just 10 euro more?

Lol! I bought a KT333 with a 2800+ CPU & ram a few years ago for $17! My how things have changed. I bought it because I wanted to see how Vlink affected Hard drive performance.

The funny thing about the Athlon was that a number of OEM's preferred 333, so AMD made all of the speed ratings available at either bus speed, just trading a few Mhz and a few watts here and there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_AMD_Ath … n_XP_processors

So, how to make your decision?

If you have a 333Mhz CPU or 333Mhz Ram that you are trying to use up, you can go with the cheaper board because you won't use the higher bus speed.
If one board comes with a CPU, ram or heatsink that you prefer, it's also pretty straight forward. Get the board that has the extras you want.
If one has rusty or bulging capacitors, then avoid that one unless you were planning to "recap" the board anyway.
If one has a fully jumperless config via the BIOS, that beats "Jumper hell"
If one supports Barton or Low voltage CPU's, then that's also a plus.
If one has a better PCB color, then get the more fashionable.
If one is much cleaner, then take the cleaner one.
And if you are still tied, spend the 10 Euro and get the 400Mhz one.

Does that decision tree help you out?

retep_110 wrote on 2024-06-18, 18:06:

Do you think that it would be worth it getting the a KT 400 board over the KT 333 board for just 10 euro more?

If you can, why not take the latest revisions of the VIA KT series? VIA was not Intel, in that Intel could introduce new features without teething problems.
For example, I found that KT 600 (Asus A7V600) was matured enough to easily use CPU power saving features, whereas KT 400 (MSI 6712) was not behaving well with such.

douglar wrote on 2024-06-18, 18:54:

Lol! I bought a KT333 with a 2800+ CPU & ram a few years ago for $17! My how things have changed. I bought it because I wante […]
Show full quote

retep_110 wrote on 2024-06-18, 18:06:

Do you think that it would be worth it getting the a KT 400 board over the KT 333 board for just 10 euro more?

Lol! I bought a KT333 with a 2800+ CPU & ram a few years ago for $17! My how things have changed. I bought it because I wanted to see how Vlink affected Hard drive performance.

The funny thing about the Athlon was that a number of OEM's preferred 333, so AMD made all of the speed ratings available at either bus speed, just trading a few Mhz and a few watts here and there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_AMD_Ath … n_XP_processors

So, how to make your decision?

If you have a 333Mhz CPU or 333Mhz Ram that you are trying to use up, you can go with the cheaper board because you won't use the higher bus speed.
If one board comes with a CPU, ram or heatsink that you prefer, it's also pretty straight forward. Get the board that has the extras you want.
If one has rusty or bulging capacitors, then avoid that one unless you were planning to "recap" the board anyway.
If one has a fully jumperless config via the BIOS, that beats "Jumper hell"
If one supports Barton or Low voltage CPU's, then that's also a plus.
If one has a better PCB color, then get the more fashionable.
If one is much cleaner, then take the cleaner one.
And if you are still tied, spend the 10 Euro and get the 400Mhz one.

Does that decision tree help you out?

Yeah that's a very interesting list. Thanks for the help.

gerwin wrote on 2024-06-18, 18:56:

retep_110 wrote on 2024-06-18, 18:06:

Do you think that it would be worth it getting the a KT 400 board over the KT 333 board for just 10 euro more?

If you can, why not take the latest revisions of the VIA KT series? VIA was not Intel, in that Intel could introduce new features without teething problems.
For example, I found that KT 600 (Asus A7V600) was matured enough to easily use CPU power saving features, whereas KT 400 (MSI 6712) was not behaving well with such.

Going for the latest revisions of the VIA KT series should be indeed the smartest thing to do.

in that that regard I decided to even a bit further. I found a local offer about a Abit KV7, a Via Kt 600 board.

I will check it out in person early next week and if I like the condition I am going to get it.

The price is good and the specs are also looking promsing. It should support the 3000 Barton series.

retep_110 wrote on 2024-06-19, 06:46:

in that that regard I decided to even a bit further. I found a local offer about a Abit KV7, a Via Kt 600 board.

I will check it out in person early next week and if I like the condition I am going to get it.

The price is good and the specs are also looking promsing. It should support the 3000 Barton series.

Abit was my favorite motherboard manufacturer around 2000. They had some of the cleanest designs at decent prices. I think you are making a good choice by moving to the KT600 instead of the KT333.

I have pleasant memories of the Barton chips, up there with the original slot A chips, although the Barton die was the smallest and that made heat sink installation a "hold your breath" moment if you had a socket mount heat sink.

The lower frequency bartons were very overclockable. I ran a Barton 2500+ (1833/333/11x) as a Barton 3200+ (2200/400/11x) in 2005, and then I gave it to my dad who ran if for another 10.

I am somehow remembering that there was some problem when it came to KT600 and retro machines. But I don't recall. AGP?

gerwin wrote on 2024-06-18, 18:56:

VIA was not Intel, in that Intel could introduce new features without teething problems.

That is why I ultimately cleansed the home of all Athlon XY-Z and VIA KTxxx stuff. If I ever get the urge to use my fastest remaining AGP card (just a 4200ti) on a win98SE machine, I grab my stored away special intel kit and give it a shot. That board gave me one of the biggests WOWs in my computer history, and it was even dirt cheap back then. It replaced my Athlon XP-3200 and made me wish I had returned to Intel sooner. I am talking about the ASRock Frankenstein 865/C2D combo. That was such a different easy experience from the Athlon years. One would think it would be nothing but trouble but it worked so well, I was having a difficult time to let it go. Much different from Athlon.

I like nForce2 and KT333. KT333 still has 3.3v AGP support so you can use any video card on it. It's also beyond the problematic VIA 686B southbridge. nForce2 on the other hand feels faster than anything else I've used, including KT880. Specifically you might see much faster Windows GUI performance on nForce2 for some reason.

With Slot A, AMD 750 and VIA KX133 both have AGP problems but can still be rock solid with the right loadout and configuration.

For the PSU issue I have an old Enermax 465W with something like 40A @ 5v. Still, the only times I recall running into power problems are when trying to use a 300W PSU with obviously insufficient power for a high end Athlon, especially when combined with a high end GPU. Nothing has blown up. Programs crash or the system BSODs.

ux-3 wrote on 2024-06-19, 15:28:

Much different from Athlon.

Back in the day, I had an Apollo Pro133A motherboard, and it didn't do Intel any favors. The glory of the intel chipsets was created by solid drivers and the fact that every hardware vendor tested their equipment on the intel chipsets.

Via tended to release early and often, and it gave them a bad name. Nforce stuff was always late, but when it was released, you knew it would work. With the power of retro-hindsight though, now you can jump right to the final version of the silicon & drivers for most of that 3rdparty stuff and it alleviates a lot of the pain that happened at the time as you rolled through monthly beta drivers trying to find something that didn't crash.

@all Thx for the further replies

I was not aware that there might be some problems when using the Via K 600 mobos. I will start to research more about that topic.

Good to know that trying to get an athlon system running might be a rocky road. I am not deterred by that fact though. It is part of the fun in retro computing to get the thing running and try some different things out.

If the whole Athlon situation is terrible, I could still try to build a Pentium 4 system to give the GF 4 4200 a nice home.

But way too early to think about some alternatives I have not even really started yet.

It is not a bad thing per se to be aware of potential problem Op but I would suggest that you just start and do not worry to much the things migh go wrong.

I am also just used to work with Socket 370 and Slot 1 systemes of at the time of building my voodoo 3 alternative system.

Working with the Gigabyte GA-7IXE and the AMD Athlon 700 MHz was not a walk in the park exactly but I did not run into any problems I could not solve after some tweakings. I also had similar problems when working with Slot 1 and Socket 370 systems.

So far I am really happy with my athlon. It is a neat voodoo 3 system.

Good luck with your project and keep us informed how it went.

I rather liked my old Athlon XP system... Kept it on life-support far longer than was actually wise.

I seem to recall having an AOpen that suffered the capacitor plague from that era.

wierd_w wrote on 2024-06-20, 06:44:

I rather liked my old Athlon XP system... Kept it on life-support far longer than was actually wise.

I seem to recall having an AOpen that suffered the capacitor plague from that era.

That's nice to see a post from a person who was happy with his athlon xp system. Yeah running into bad caps seems to be recurring theme that has been mentioned rather often in my thread already. That's good to know that the chances are hight that I am going to need new caps for my upcoming board.

@predator_085 Thanks. Giving up never occured to me. Like I said I have not even started yet so it way too early to give up.

I just have to wait until check out the VIA Kt 600 board I have mentioned above. if the condition of the board seems fine to be I am going to start with it, if not I need to look somewhere else.

@all Just in case I am not going to find a Socket A board at good price would be a Slot A system with decent cpu a viable alternative.?

Or is anything that a Slot A has to offer cpu power wise way to little to make got use of the Geforce 4 4200 ti?

I prefer going the Socket A route but in case I cannot find a neat Socket A board, the Slot A might a alternative. It won't be the best but still an alternative to consider.

Have seen many MSI MS-6191 in the wild at a good price for example.

IIRC, the Athlon XP era was right on the cusp of the x64 adoption age.

I *WANTED* 64bit processing and RAM support, and Intel's chips were still trying (and failing) to hawk Itanium "No, we DONT WANT to support 32 or 16 bit modes! Whaaaaa! Daddy, make them stoooop!" bullshit.

I also early adopted XP 64bit edition in that era, despite the driver headaches that caused.

Again though, my AOpen board (Forget the series, I am not that picky.) suffered the cap plague and spooged orange goo all over. It wasn't worth the effort, and by then, Intel had finally stopped being petulant children, and begrudgingly adopted AMD's ISA extensions for 64bit with the i-series chips. Got an early i9 as the replacement system.