mothergoose729 wrote on 2022-01-21, 20:11:

So... what? Software emulation does the same thing... just in software. This is a value assessment. The output is the same. Neit […]
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vstrakh wrote on 2022-01-21, 19:35:

mothergoose729 wrote on 2022-01-21, 16:37:

Each individual chip in a SNES for example is not described exactly in HDL, where each chip has a different set of timing and clock cycles and the interactions between each chip are described faithfully, instead operations are approximated and batched together at acceptable timing

It's not approximated, it's expressed in terms of different hardware in use, and there's really no practical reasons (logic utilization, routing efficiency, etc) to express real chips separately, unless those parts would be reused in another project.
Z80 is an example of something that could be used in many systems, so it's a project on its own, exposing the interface (wires/signals) as in real Z80. You could model some other hw to attach to that bus and the system would behave exactly the same as if real Z80 was in use, as observed on the bus, but you don't look at the internals - there's entirely different components.

So... what? Software emulation does the same thing... just in software. This is a value assessment. The output is the same. Neither are a real SNES.

I beg to differ. In fpga it's not batched. It delivers the required computations at the defined observable interfaces exactly at […]
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mothergoose729 wrote on 2022-01-21, 16:37:

- just like in software emulators.

I beg to differ. In fpga it's not batched. It delivers the required computations at the defined observable interfaces exactly at the moments where those computations would happen in original hardware. This is why it needs a puny resources compared to software emulations.

mothergoose729 wrote on 2022-01-21, 16:37:

It's just that a mister is not a hardware clone, it's emulation.

It's definitely not a replica, but it is a hardware clone. You can call it a fake/counterfeit, or even bad chinese clone because it doesn't use the chips that are long gone.
But it's a hardware clone, imitating the observed behavior that was inherent to the real system, just built of different ICs. The HDL modules would be the new "chips", and for practical reasons functionality would be packed in a way that is different from the original hw which had to use off-the-shelf components. This doesn't make this clone any less hardware.

The only thing I called the mister was another form of emulation. What are we arguing about?

Which accuracy do you have in mind?you […]
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mothergoose729 wrote on 2022-01-21, 16:37:

It's not more accurate in any meaningful way, it's just different. The mister has a number of advantages to PC emulation but accuracy strictly speaking isn't one of them.

Which accuracy do you have in mind?you

And you still can't deny the latency associated with SW emulation. Removing the OS out of SW performance equation can't remove the latency when simulation interacts with real world even in theory.
Fpga implementation simply has no this treat, the events on exposed/observable interfaces happen in real time exactly at the required moment down to some nanoseconds. Because it is a hardware and not a data model simulation that spins in a higher-level virtual machine with unpredictable timings.

Well that is the question. What is accuracy? If the real interaction of chips is expressed faithfully and exactly is that accurate? What if the functional utility of the device is expressed is that enough? It's a philosophical question. The most accurate software emulators like BSNES do not simulate each transistor and gate but they do represent the behavior of those chips, sometimes in great detail and sometimes in aggregate. Mister cores do not have the space to represent the entire circuit 1-1 so they build equivalent circuits. Does it matter? Which one is "better"? I have an apple for your orange.

One dangerous notion that does need to be dispelled is that mister cores are perfect because in some fundamental way they are better simulators. The good mister cores are incredible. There are many mister cores that are still being developed and need more time. They have bugs, they don't support all the features of the original hardware, they don't always have the performance or the behavior you would expect, ect.

The latency thing is a separate issue. From a practical standpoint you don't have to process inputs in nanoseconds for a video game. The real reason software emulators have higher latency (sometimes) than real hardware or FPGA is complicated, and yes the OS and the drivers absolutely play a part. Why it's worse though almost doesn't matter, only that it is worse. The mister has negligible input lag compared to real hardware which is one of many good reasons to play games on a mister.

Do you own a Mister? I am just curious if your PoV comes from personal experimentation, or theory.

Regarding accuracy comparison, can you point to (for example, MDFourier) data showing software emulators exactly matching the sound output of a real console, in the league of what Mister can do?

Can you talk about which Street Fighter II software emulation has the full DMA and bus timings correct, including the correct wait states emulation, in the league of what Mister does?

These "tiny matters" and endless more are very real differences, but we can't make an individual care about those things : ergo, if you don't care about those things, then Mister is probably not for you. 😀 No shame in that; we're not special, just different.

But those things do matter to some enthusiasts, and a person can't invalid that just because they personally don't appreciate the differences. Mister is pretty great, and is distinctly different than any software emulation I've ever used across about 25 years of using those, and virtually everyone who owns one says the same.

I will grant you that it shares several concepts with software emulation, and that the differences involved are things which largely matter to the lifetime-enthusiast end of the bell curve; and that software emulation is itself an amazing, incredibly accomplished area, which is quite rightly more-than-satisfying for a great deal of gamers.

Shreddoc wrote on 2022-01-21, 21:04:

Do you own a Mister? I am just curious if your PoV comes from reality or theory. […]
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mothergoose729 wrote on 2022-01-21, 20:11:

So... what? Software emulation does the same thing... just in software. This is a value assessment. The output is the same. Neit […]
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vstrakh wrote on 2022-01-21, 19:35:

It's not approximated, it's expressed in terms of different hardware in use, and there's really no practical reasons (logic utilization, routing efficiency, etc) to express real chips separately, unless those parts would be reused in another project.
Z80 is an example of something that could be used in many systems, so it's a project on its own, exposing the interface (wires/signals) as in real Z80. You could model some other hw to attach to that bus and the system would behave exactly the same as if real Z80 was in use, as observed on the bus, but you don't look at the internals - there's entirely different components.

So... what? Software emulation does the same thing... just in software. This is a value assessment. The output is the same. Neither are a real SNES.

I beg to differ. In fpga it's not batched. It delivers the required computations at the defined observable interfaces exactly at the moments where those computations would happen in original hardware. This is why it needs a puny resources compared to software emulations.

It's definitely not a replica, but it is a hardware clone. You can call it a fake/counterfeit, or even bad chinese clone because it doesn't use the chips that are long gone.
But it's a hardware clone, imitating the observed behavior that was inherent to the real system, just built of different ICs. The HDL modules would be the new "chips", and for practical reasons functionality would be packed in a way that is different from the original hw which had to use off-the-shelf components. This doesn't make this clone any less hardware.

The only thing I called the mister was another form of emulation. What are we arguing about?

Which accuracy do you have in mind?you

And you still can't deny the latency associated with SW emulation. Removing the OS out of SW performance equation can't remove the latency when simulation interacts with real world even in theory.
Fpga implementation simply has no this treat, the events on exposed/observable interfaces happen in real time exactly at the required moment down to some nanoseconds. Because it is a hardware and not a data model simulation that spins in a higher-level virtual machine with unpredictable timings.

Well that is the question. What is accuracy? If the real interaction of chips is expressed faithfully and exactly is that accurate? What if the functional utility of the device is expressed is that enough? It's a philosophical question. The most accurate software emulators like BSNES do not simulate each transistor and gate but they do represent the behavior of those chips, sometimes in great detail and sometimes in aggregate. Mister cores do not have the space to represent the entire circuit 1-1 so they build equivalent circuits. Does it matter? Which one is "better"? I have an apple for your orange.

One dangerous notion that does need to be dispelled is that mister cores are perfect because in some fundamental way they are better simulators. The good mister cores are incredible. There are many mister cores that are still being developed and need more time. They have bugs, they don't support all the features of the original hardware, they don't always have the performance or the behavior you would expect, ect.

The latency thing is a separate issue. From a practical standpoint you don't have to process inputs in nanoseconds for a video game. The real reason software emulators have higher latency (sometimes) than real hardware or FPGA is complicated, and yes the OS and the drivers absolutely play a part. Why it's worse though almost doesn't matter, only that it is worse. The mister has negligible input lag compared to real hardware which is one of many good reasons to play games on a mister.

Do you own a Mister? I am just curious if your PoV comes from reality or theory.

Regarding accuracy comparison, can you point to (for example, MDFourier) data showing software emulators exactly matching the sound output of a real console, in the league of what Mister can do?

Can you talk about which Street Fighter II software emulation has the full DMA and bus timings correct, including the correct wait states emulation, in the league of what Mister does?

These "tiny matters" and endless more are very real differences, but we can't make an individual care about those things : ergo, if you don't care about those things, then Mister is probably not for you. 😀

No shame in that. But all those things do matter to many enthusiasts, and a person can't invalid that just because they personally don't appreciate the differences. Mister is pretty great, and is distinctly different than any software emulation I've ever used across about 25 years of using those.

I don't own the mister, but I've been following it for years.

I don't know what you are referring too with MDFourier. If you told me that a mister core has more accurate sound than the leading software emulator I would say that is unlikely but plausible. Sound emulation has often been neglected and trailed behind in emulation in general. I am not sure how an FPGA emulator would be any better at it than a software emulator though. Which system do you believe has more accurate sound on FPGA?

All I know about street fighter II on mister is that CP System II is a very recent core to Mister. I don't follow street figher II well enough to be able to tell you if there were any differences between mister or MAME, but I would bet that MAME probably nailed the CP System II many years ago.

mothergoose729 wrote on 2022-01-21, 21:35:

I don't own the mister, but I've been following it for years.

I don't know what you are referring too with MDFourier. If you told me that a mister core has more accurate sound than the leading software emulator I would say that is unlikely but plausible. Sound emulation has often been neglected and trailed behind in emulation in general. I am not sure how an FPGA emulator would be any better at it than a software emulator though. Which system do you believe has more accurate sound on FPGA?

All I know about street fighter II on mister is that CP System II is a very recent core to Mister. I don't follow street figher II well enough to be able to tell you if there were any differences between mister or MAME, but I would bet that MAME probably nailed the CP System II many years ago.

MDFourier is a project that was originally started with the Sega Megadrive/Genesis. People took many original systems including multiples of each revision and produced high-quality recordings of a list of sources. The recordings were then compared down to the waveform and a baseline was then determined for the two sounds chips the original systems used. This baseline was then compared to what software and FPGAs produced MISTer was one of the first things to be tweaked so its sound production matched the baseline, since then other software emulators were also updated to produce accurate sound.

As for the CPS2, I'm not sure about how close MAME is now, but when the MISTer core came out, it was the only thing that accurately produced QSound. I know some games were updated in MAME after people did the work to perfect an FPGA core. There were things that affected extremely minor things like how something is displayed during a screen transition that came down to very low-level timing.

Is MISTer more accurate than MAME? There are SF2 pros that are using MISTer for practice and training who previously avoided MAME and opted for original hardware.

This isn't to say MISTer is perfect, software emulators suck. Both are recreations of the original hardware and there can always be issues. FPGAs give you easier access to much finer control of clocks and how things communicate, versus software which most people have an OS that has a scheduler that swaps processes in and out so you can never guarantee a nanosecond on when something will run.

SScorpio wrote on 2022-01-21, 21:56:

MDFourier is a project that was originally started with the Sega Megadrive/Genesis. People took many original systems including […]
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mothergoose729 wrote on 2022-01-21, 21:35:

I don't own the mister, but I've been following it for years.

I don't know what you are referring too with MDFourier. If you told me that a mister core has more accurate sound than the leading software emulator I would say that is unlikely but plausible. Sound emulation has often been neglected and trailed behind in emulation in general. I am not sure how an FPGA emulator would be any better at it than a software emulator though. Which system do you believe has more accurate sound on FPGA?

All I know about street fighter II on mister is that CP System II is a very recent core to Mister. I don't follow street figher II well enough to be able to tell you if there were any differences between mister or MAME, but I would bet that MAME probably nailed the CP System II many years ago.

MDFourier is a project that was originally started with the Sega Megadrive/Genesis. People took many original systems including multiples of each revision and produced high-quality recordings of a list of sources. The recordings were then compared down to the waveform and a baseline was then determined for the two sounds chips the original systems used. This baseline was then compared to what software and FPGAs produced MISTer was one of the first things to be tweaked so its sound production matched the baseline, since then other software emulators were also updated to produce accurate sound.

As for the CPS2, I'm not sure about how close MAME is now, but when the MISTer core came out, it was the only thing that accurately produced QSound. I know some games were updated in MAME after people did the work to perfect an FPGA core. There were things that affected extremely minor things like how something is displayed during a screen transition that came down to very low-level timing.

Is MISTer more accurate than MAME? There are SF2 pros that are using MISTer for practice and training who previously avoided MAME and opted for original hardware.

This isn't to say MISTer is perfect, software emulators suck. Both are recreations of the original hardware and there can always be issues. FPGAs give you easier access to much finer control of clocks and how things communicate, versus software which most people have an OS that has a scheduler that swaps processes in and out so you can never guarantee a nanosecond on when something will run.

Interesting, thanks!

mothergoose729 wrote on 2022-01-21, 21:35:

I don't know what you are referring too with MDFourier. If you told me that a mister core has more accurate sound than the leading software emulator I would say that is unlikely but plausible. Sound emulation has often been neglected and trailed behind in emulation in general. I am not sure how an FPGA emulator would be any better at it than a software emulator though. Which system do you believe has more accurate sound on FPGA?

Depends which emulator you're using, and which FPGA you're using. There's a vast range of accuracy across the 1001 different software emulators. Even between different FPGA implementations there are significant differences, as I show below. So, in saying that, do understand that people saying "Mister = awesome" isn't the same thing as saying "anything done with FPGA is automatically awesome".

And I'll be first to admit there isn't yet a huge wealth of scientific data - of the quality shown below - out there, to definitively chart all the differences out; at least, not conveniently such that I can quickly gather here for you in a neat forum post - without taking all day!

But take merely the following isolated example as an illustration of how significant and measurable differences exist, even at the so-called "high end" of emulation or whatever-one-wants-to-call it.

Referencing page Emulation Accuracy at the Emulation General Wiki, the Analogue-branded FPGA based consoles are lauded as one of the most accurate implementations that exist. Quote: "While it may be theoretically possible to have a 100% perfect emulator, that feat is very rare (if not nearly impossible), even for some highly regarded emulators such as higan or kevtris's work on the various FPGA-based consoles by Analogue".

Now, referencing a post by a respected scene figure showing the relative accuracies [at that time] between the original console's revisions, the abovementioned "Analogue"-branded FPGA implementation which they cited as a high water mark, and Mister's implemention, in exacting scientific data :

Here's an example of the Sega Megadrive/Genesis. In all graphs, the three sound generators (FM "Frequency Modulation", PSG "Puls […]
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Here's an example of the Sega Megadrive/Genesis. In all graphs, the three sound generators (FM "Frequency Modulation", PSG "Pulse Sound Generator", noise - random/white noise) are lines on the graphs. The closer these are to zero, the closer the sound of the compared devices are. In all cases, audio is compared to the original VA1 Megadrive/Genesis.

1) Comparing a VA1 to a VA6 motherboard. Same Yamaha sound chip, ever so slightly different output due to analogue components on the boards around the chips, poor trace routing causing noise, etc. But these differences are minute.

1.png

Next, the Analogue Mega Sg. Developed by FPGA guru Kevtris, who despite being a very clever guy, dislikes open source. Analogue's designs are all proprietary and nobody outside of their company can improve them. Let's look at an audio comparison:

2.png

Miles off. Huge variances in the 2KHz-10KHz range that are obvious on the graph, and would be quite obvious even to the untrained ear. Better in the more critical 100Hz-1KHz range (human voices are in here), but still pretty terrible.

Final comparison, MiSTer FPGA cores from a while back (earlier this year). Things have improved since, but these were still pretty good:

3.png

Larger variances at the very high end (pushing into 20KHz which is the upper bounds of what humans can hear). But even then +/- 3dBFS at those frequencies puts them into the almost indistinguishable category. The critical 100Hz-1KHz is very good. More to the point, the data is objective and nobody can disagree with it. It's good, but it can improve, so people are improving it. No ego, no opinion.

This data doesn't exist for PC and microcomputer audio right now. You bought a new OPL3 card from someone on Vogons. It sounds "good to you". But how good? How accurate? Does it match your original cards of choice? How do you even know?

And if the differences between even these two FPGA projects considered at the highest end of accuracy are clearly and obviously measurable, do you really think the spectrum of software emulators - a scene which itself admits has a broad range of accuracy - would not likewise exhibit big differences?? Of course they do 😀

Real, significant accuracy differences do exist across the scene, and it's not a "belief", it's scientific truth. But as I said above, that doesn't mean everyone has to care about those differences, which often involve a level of nuance beyond the care of everyday people.

held wrote on 2021-09-21, 18:38:

Well the title says it all. […]
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Well the title says it all.

I'm interested and I am seriously considering buying one. I've seen some video's however they seem all too happy with it. It sounds too good to be true

Let me know if you own one, and whats great and whats not.

Thanks guys

Very late to the party, but I have *most* of the components. Waiting on a copper heatsink to stick on the Alterix FPGA itself (they didn't include one), 128 SDRAM, and that MiSTER MT-32 Pi add on to go with it. Those three are slooooowly making their way from the UK, so it'll be a while. EVery thing else, from the DE-10 Nano, USB board, IO Boards, Noctua Fan, case, standoffs, extra cables, an SD-Card, etc... all arrived.

Just from looking at the forums, there's still plenty of room for improvement (it's not as refined as the FPGAs in the Analogue systems). IIRC, ao486 is acts like a 486SX, so don't expect miracles. That MT-32 Pi that can switch between MT-32 and GM patch sets to offload some of the work from the main FPGA, but it'll likely bee a few weeks before the last parts arrive, and I can torture test the thing.

ThatIdiotCid wrote on 2022-03-09, 19:07:

Just from looking at the forums, there's still plenty of room for improvement (it's not as refined as the FPGAs in the Analogue systems).

It would be interesting to read the sources from which you have drawn that bolded conclusion - do you have links?

Certainly always plenty of room for improvement in any project.

But equally true that Mister is at the leading edge of all emulation systems, along with it's (very very few) immediate competitors.

ThatIdiotCid wrote on 2022-03-09, 19:07:

IIRC, ao486 is acts like a 486SX, so don't expect miracles. That MT-32 Pi that can switch between MT-32 and GM patch sets to offload some of the work from the main FPGA, but it'll likely bee a few weeks before the last parts arrive, and I can torture test the thing.

(for the FYI of other prospective buyers - to note that there are options) : That is why I gambled to spend about US$20 more - even though it galled, at the time! - and get my international order of Mister extras from a popular USA-based outlet. For your extra money, you get UPS Express shipping, vs the (obviously cheaper) UK Post slow shipping of the main UK outlet.

Shreddoc wrote on 2022-03-09, 20:34:

It would be interesting to read the sources from which you have drawn that bolded conclusion - do you have links? […]
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ThatIdiotCid wrote on 2022-03-09, 19:07:

Just from looking at the forums, there's still plenty of room for improvement (it's not as refined as the FPGAs in the Analogue systems).

It would be interesting to read the sources from which you have drawn that bolded conclusion - do you have links?

Certainly always plenty of room for improvement in any project.

But equally true that Mister is at the leading edge of all emulation systems, along with it's (very very few) immediate competitors.

ThatIdiotCid wrote on 2022-03-09, 19:07:

IIRC, ao486 is acts like a 486SX, so don't expect miracles. That MT-32 Pi that can switch between MT-32 and GM patch sets to offload some of the work from the main FPGA, but it'll likely bee a few weeks before the last parts arrive, and I can torture test the thing.

The devs behind the various Analogue consoles (https://www.analogue.co/) focus on one (and only one) FPGA implementation per-console. MiSTER is trying to create a ton of cores for a wide swath of various systems. When Analogue got the MegaDrive/Genesis/SNES/etc.... right, it was because they focused heavily on perfectly re-implementing the hardware in an FPGA for that one console. Ignoring how much time they devoted to each one, you can't just "load a different core" into the their MegaDrive version, and suddenly have it run SNES games flawlesssly.

With MiSTER, they're trying to to create a ton of cores for a large list of platforms. Something is bound to fall through the cracks, until the MiSTER devs can address it. Go look over at the official MiSTER forums (https://misterfpga.org/) , and you'll see plenty of comments on odd issues. If you go to the MiSTER Github/Wiki, you can see that the core for the CAVE arcade boards only supports a single game, not all the others they made using the same arcade board (https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Main_MiSTer/w … cade-Cores-List)

(for the FYI of other prospective buyers - to note that there are options) : That is why I gambled to spend about US$20 more - even though it galled, at the time! - and get my international order of Mister extras from a popular USA-based outlet. For your extra money, you get UPS Express shipping, vs the (obviously cheaper) UK Post slow shipping of the main UK outlet.

That's not to say that it'll NEVER get improved. It's not like the Sega Saturn emulators that never seemed to get finished. But you don't have to take my word for it. MiSTER's still rough around the edges, based on the games you want to play, and I'm confident they'll get it ironed out eventually.

Well, that's weird. Cut off 2/3rds of my reply. Just expand the previous reply to see the entirety of my response.

(And yes, I did go out and buy a MiSTER FPGA, so I've got a vested interest in it. My problem, is that they failed to include a heat sink for the FPGA (which I'm not comfy not having in place), and I wanted that MT-32 Pi HAT to add to it (which meant chasing down a Pi 3a+), and I wanted 128GB RAM for it. )

If the MiSTER devs can perfect the CAVE, Neo Geo, Capcom CPS cores, and add in stuff like the various Sega arcade boards, I'd be over the moon with delight. Oh, and the various boards used for arcade shmups/beat 'em ups.

ThatIdiotCid wrote on 2022-03-09, 22:13:

The devs behind the various Analogue consoles (https://www.analogue.co/) focus on one (and only one) FPGA implementation per-console. MiSTER is trying to create a ton of cores for a wide swath of various systems. When Analogue got the MegaDrive/Genesis/SNES/etc.... right, it was because they focused heavily on perfectly re-implementing the hardware in an FPGA for that one console. Ignoring how much time they devoted to each one, you can't just "load a different core" into the their MegaDrive version, and suddenly have it run SNES games flawlesssly.

With MiSTER, they're trying to to create a ton of cores for a large list of platforms. Something is bound to fall through the cracks, until the MiSTER devs can address it. Go look over at the official MiSTER forums (https://misterfpga.org/) , and you'll see plenty of comments on odd issues. If you go to the MiSTER Github/Wiki, you can see that the core for the CAVE arcade boards only supports a single game, not all the others they made using the same arcade board (https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Main_MiSTer/w … cade-Cores-List)

That's not to say that it'll NEVER get improved. It's not like the Sega Saturn emulators that never seemed to get finished. But you don't have to take my word for it. MiSTER's still rough around the edges, based on the games you want to play, and I'm confident they'll get it ironed out eventually.

Ah, I see. The things you are talking about are ideological differences, or differences of design and commercial approach, rather than actual scientific or empirical comparisons.

Similar ideologies abound from both sides, around concepts such as range of coverage, cost, openness, availability, numbers of contributing devs, open source vs proprietary, how quickly issues get fixed, how much each product will expand over time, aesthetic concerns, and many others.

With the only rational conclusion being "there are options with varying strengths". One is certainly not overall more refined than another, because the definition of refinement is so broadly interpretable.

For example, I could easily claim the Mister is more refined and of "higher quality FPGA implementation", given the scientific data just a few posts above which shows Analogue's poor Genesis audio accuracy compared to the Mister. But it's only fair to say that such battles would go back and forth on many many different fronts.

Shreddoc wrote on 2022-03-09, 23:35:

Ah, I see. The things you are talking about are ideological differences, or differences of design and commercial approach, rathe […]
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ThatIdiotCid wrote on 2022-03-09, 22:13:

The devs behind the various Analogue consoles (https://www.analogue.co/) focus on one (and only one) FPGA implementation per-console. MiSTER is trying to create a ton of cores for a wide swath of various systems. When Analogue got the MegaDrive/Genesis/SNES/etc.... right, it was because they focused heavily on perfectly re-implementing the hardware in an FPGA for that one console. Ignoring how much time they devoted to each one, you can't just "load a different core" into the their MegaDrive version, and suddenly have it run SNES games flawlesssly.

With MiSTER, they're trying to to create a ton of cores for a large list of platforms. Something is bound to fall through the cracks, until the MiSTER devs can address it. Go look over at the official MiSTER forums (https://misterfpga.org/) , and you'll see plenty of comments on odd issues. If you go to the MiSTER Github/Wiki, you can see that the core for the CAVE arcade boards only supports a single game, not all the others they made using the same arcade board (https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Main_MiSTer/w … cade-Cores-List)

That's not to say that it'll NEVER get improved. It's not like the Sega Saturn emulators that never seemed to get finished. But you don't have to take my word for it. MiSTER's still rough around the edges, based on the games you want to play, and I'm confident they'll get it ironed out eventually.

Ah, I see. The things you are talking about are ideological differences, or differences of design and commercial approach, rather than actual scientific or empirical comparisons.

Similar ideologies abound from both sides, around concepts such as range of coverage, cost, openness, availability, numbers of contributing devs, open source vs proprietary, how quickly issues get fixed, how much each product will expand over time, aesthetic concerns, and many others.

With the only rational conclusion being "there are options with varying strengths". One is certainly not overall more refined than another, because the definition of refinement is so broadly interpretable.

For example, I could easily claim the Mister is more refined and of "higher quality FPGA implementation", given the scientific data just a few posts above which shows Analogue's poor Genesis audio accuracy compared to the Mister. But it's only fair to say that such battles would go back and forth on many many different fronts.

Yeah, we can argue semantics about this, until the cows come home. 😀
I guess what's disappointed me more (for the immediate time being), is that I was wanting to use the MiSTER FPGA for my beloved Arcade games instead of chasing down individual boards and making multiple cabinets, but those cores aren't quite ready for prime time, and as well as how the ao486 core isn't 100% perfect (some games are wonky or just don't work yet) . It'll get there in time, and I'm wiling to jump through the hoops until that day arrives, since I have a vested interest in this project.

One test (if I can get any free time,) is to see how the MiSTER FPGA Amiga core stacks up against Amiga Forever. I suspect it's not too far off the mark, but at a minimum, I could make some bug reports in the MiSTER trouble tickets. 😀

Absolutely, it is the open source and ongoing nature of the Mister project, that little is ever "finished, done, final release".

One must not be under the mistaken assumption that any of these products are 100% clones of originals, or even that they offer the same focuses and feature sets as each other.

Every emulation system, including both Mister and Analogue devices (e.g.), has an easily-Googleable history of issues and improvement requests, let's be clear; there is no angel here, in that respect.

Whether one enjoys endlessly playing low-lag near-perfectly emulated games with tons of features on top, or finding and making bug reports, there is no shortage of joy in any of these high end leading-edge devices, it is fair to say! 😀

SquallStrife wrote on 2022-01-21, 05:40:

The ao486 core is never likely to be much good, because the sheer transistor count is way too high to do gate-level simulation. […]
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The ao486 core is never likely to be much good, because the sheer transistor count is way too high to do gate-level simulation.

So any PC core is going to be an implementation of a high-level emulator by necessity. E.g. ao486 is effectively just a port of Bochs.

For perspective, a 68020 has 190K transistors, a 486 has 1.1M.

MiSTer is an awesome platform, with great strentghs, but there's a ceiling to its capabilities unless they move to a new (bigger, more expensive) FPGA.

Yup, that AO486 core is a tough one. Its not great t.b.h. It reminded me of DOSBox when it just started. Some stuff works, other stuff works kinda or not at all. But I'm having fun. I think there's talk about a hybrid emulation, but its all banter for now. I think its going to take a while for this core to be usable.

Maybe I am very spoiled by DOSBox, it just sets very high standards for DOS gaming 😁

Great insight you had there 👍

ThatIdiotCid wrote on 2022-03-09, 19:07:

Very late to the party, but I have *most* of the components. Waiting on a copper heatsink to stick on the Alterix FPGA itself (they didn't include one), 128 SDRAM, and that MiSTER MT-32 Pi add on to go with it. Those three are slooooowly making their way from the UK, so it'll be a while. EVery thing else, from the DE-10 Nano, USB board, IO Boards, Noctua Fan, case, standoffs, extra cables, an SD-Card, etc... all arrived.

Just from looking at the forums, there's still plenty of room for improvement (it's not as refined as the FPGAs in the Analogue systems). IIRC, ao486 is acts like a 486SX, so don't expect miracles. That MT-32 Pi that can switch between MT-32 and GM patch sets to offload some of the work from the main FPGA, but it'll likely bee a few weeks before the last parts arrive, and I can torture test the thing.

Late? Nah. Just in time for the PSX core, its getting really good now. And I wonder about that Saturn Core too. I hope it does not become like the year of the Linux Desktop 🤣

The AO486 does 90MHZ now, but personally I keep it at 56MHZ unless I really need it. You can play DOOM but not SIGIL. That's just asking too much.

Oh and if you are planning to use HDMI, try to source a CEC-less cable. There are weird issues because it seems HDMI has not been separated properly. Some have issues with certain TV's (*cough* Sony) and WIFI modules.

There is a thread on misterfpga.org about it: https://misterfpga.org/viewtopic.php?p=28153#p28153

I sourced some PS5 controllers, because they also act as a mouse. Its crazy stuff 🤣

Shreddoc wrote on 2022-03-09, 20:34:

(for the FYI of other prospective buyers - to note that there are options) : That is why I gambled to spend about US$20 more - even though it galled, at the time! - and get my international order of Mister extras from a popular USA-based outlet. For your extra money, you get UPS Express shipping, vs the (obviously cheaper) UK Post slow shipping of the main UK outlet.

Ahh, you bit the bullet too 😁

How do you like it?

held wrote on 2022-03-20, 15:22:

Shreddoc wrote on 2022-03-09, 20:34:

(for the FYI of other prospective buyers - to note that there are options) : That is why I gambled to spend about US$20 more - even though it galled, at the time! - and get my international order of Mister extras from a popular USA-based outlet. For your extra money, you get UPS Express shipping, vs the (obviously cheaper) UK Post slow shipping of the main UK outlet.

Ahh, you bit the bullet too 😁

How do you like it?

Best gaming device I've ever owned, bar none. It's that good!

Suddenly, it's as though I have every retro console I never owned - which is almost all of them. And even though I sort-of already had that (via a good i7-based emulation setup), the MiSTer experience overall just blows it away.

+ the tech itself is super exciting. Watching your cores get loaded and knowing that this special FPGA is having it's logic gates magically rearranged to (in some cases) virtually be the original hardware, is just tops. And then there's all the modern enhancements on top of that. All in this tiny barely-bigger-than-a-Pi thing!, which is using somewhere between 1/50th and 1/10th of both the power, and the space, that the PC-based emulation rig requires.

I'd say it's the best thing since sliced bread, but it takes markedly longer than 10 seconds for sliced bread to achieve plug n play zero-lag pixel- and audio- perfect, <insert any game here>, integer-scaled perfect-scanline + shadow-mask + filters, tons of tech + convenience options built in, and connection options for almost anything, which I can play just as easily on my VGA CRTs as my HDMI LCDs. @ <20W.

Granted, a simple Pi4 will get a person 90% of the way there too. But for those of us who've 'put up with' 90% through at least 2 decades of software emulation by now, and want something a bit more, the MiSTer really kicks butt. Just like everyone in-the-know has been telling me for years now. Well, they were right.

Not that I ever doubted them! 😁

Thanks for the detailed reply,

Shreddoc wrote on 2022-03-20, 22:12:

Best gaming device I've ever owned, bar none. It's that good!

Suddenly, it's as though I have every retro console I never owned - which is almost all of them. And even though I sort-of already had that (via a good i7-based emulation setup), the MiSTer experience overall just blows it away.

Yeah, its great isn't it. I'm also discovering all those computers from before 😁

Shreddoc wrote on 2022-03-20, 22:12:

I'd say it's the best thing since sliced bread, but it takes markedly longer than 10 seconds for sliced bread to achieve plug n play zero-lag pixel- and audio- perfect, <insert any game here>, integer-scaled perfect-scanline + shadow-mask + filters, tons of tech + convenience options built in, and connection options for almost anything, which I can play just as easily on my VGA CRTs as my HDMI LCDs. @ <20W.

I'm not having that experience, I'm mostly waiting on my TV. The right configuration takes time depending on my expectations and memories. But once that's done its almost instant, like the old days. (try removing the wifi and see if that speeds up things)

@everyone:
If you have some time to kill and want more in-depth information:
https://youtu.be/watch?v=rhT6YYRH1EI

held wrote on 2022-04-04, 11:03:

I'm not having that experience, I'm mostly waiting on my TV. The right configuration takes time depending on my expectations and […]
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Shreddoc wrote on 2022-03-20, 22:12:

I'd say it's the best thing since sliced bread, but it takes markedly longer than 10 seconds for sliced bread to achieve plug n play zero-lag pixel- and audio- perfect, <insert any game here>, integer-scaled perfect-scanline + shadow-mask + filters, tons of tech + convenience options built in, and connection options for almost anything, which I can play just as easily on my VGA CRTs as my HDMI LCDs. @ <20W.

I'm not having that experience, I'm mostly waiting on my TV. The right configuration takes time depending on my expectations and memories. But once that's done its almost instant, like the old days. (try removing the wifi and see if that speeds up things)

@everyone:
If you have some time to kill and want more in-depth information:
https://youtu.be/watch?v=rhT6YYRH1EI

My typical stupidly-convoluted sentence structure probably obscured my point, which was: MiSTer is just like the old console days of "simply switch it on, and play great games". But so much better.

The above-linked MLIG video is very in-depth (at 2hrs 40mins), and a great resource. Here for the record, is the other prominent 'MiSTer explainer' video to hit YT in recent days: the 10 minute version, from the very excellent RetroRGB Bob -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5__shDTYMQ

I found a cheap CEC-killer here for people in the Netherlands: https://www.onlinekabelshop.nl/hdmi-cec-killer-versie-1-4
€ 5,99 a piece including taxes but excluding postage (€ 4,99)

It solved my problems with the CEC/HMDI-issues I was having with my TV.

BraveToaster wrote on 2021-09-21, 21:49:

I've had my eye on it for a while, too - and it looks like a really awesome solution overall.
The consolized variant from RMC is coming out very soon though, and I'm waiting for some feedback on that before I make a decision - it sure looks like a nice package.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vDIz8WY6zLE

It looks like they have just open sourced this design!

I own a MiSTer, I bought it so I could play Wing Commander: Privateer without having to have a bulky retro PC setup. I have a lot of thoughts regarding it:
AO486 Core:
Pros:
- Runs Privateer Perfectly
- Good sound blaster emulation.
- Wing Commander 1/2 work great
- Strike Commander/Hocus Pocus/Wacky Wheels/Syndicate all work perfectly.
- Anything you need a 386 for just get a MiSTer.
- FreeDOS is a gem on this thing, it runs most of the DOS games and you can run drive images of at least 8GB Fat32 (tested by me)
- Drive image swapping/ISO support is awesome. Retro PC without the headaches.

Cons:
- Little underpowered for WC 3/4 (3D Space flight performance isn't there in SVGA, playable in VGA but not ideal)
- Privateer 2 crashes ingame due to no FPU.
- 486+ it gets dodgy.
- Avoid Windows 98SE it boots but it's not worth it
- SDCard Write performance is awful (there are network mount workarounds and you can pre-load a card fast on a modern PC).

Old Computer Cores:
Amiga:
Pros:
Solid Amiga support, runs Amiga OS 3.2 with latest patches from 2023, and all the old workbench/Amiga stuff.
Cons:
CPU is limited to 68020 at this time, needs 68040 and 68060 support for Amiga 3000/4000 emulation.

Macs:
Pros:
Apple 1/Apple 2 work well.
Cons:
CPU is limited to 68020 at this time, needs 68040 for System 7/8 Macs (can't run Super Wing Commander, boo).

Other Retro PCs:
- Commodore 64/128 work great, easy setup/run.

Arcade Cores:
Pros:
- Awesome retro arcade box.
Cons:
- MAME runs more arcades, this will likely change overtime as MiSTer gains more compatibility.

Consoles:
Pros:
- Nintendo 64 - This core is rapidly developing and is already crushing a bunch of the software emulators for features/performance. I expect it'll be finished in a few months. Already runs Star Wars Rogue Squadron which most emulators failed hard at. Ridiculously fast progress in two months.
- PSX - Runs everything I've thrown at it. Great core.
- Sega Saturn - Runs everything I've thrown at it, a great core especially as the Saturn Everdrive style devices cost as much as the MiSTer does.
- SNES/Megadrive/32X/Other 16-bit consoles, all the majors are here and work like you expect.
Cons:
- Performance caps out around Sega Saturn/N64/Playstation 1 era. developers are insistent that Dreamcast/PS2 era consoles can't be done on MiSTer DE10 Nano Hardware.

Other System Items:
- management is easy, there are scripts on the internet which handle BIOS installs/upgrades of cores for you. Very easy to setup/update and maintain.

Overall:
Worth the money, I would buy it again, however I would caution people wanting to use it for the AO486 core. PC Emulation has challenges on MiSTer (no FPU and no Pentum 1 support). There is no perfect solution for X86 retro gaming, but a MiSTer can help you get rid of 386/486 era hardware. I would recommend Retro Gamers have a MiSTer, a Pentium 2/3 era Voodoo2+ machine and a modern gaming PC, old 386/486/XT hardware is no longer needed with a MiSTer.