A quick glance at the schematics shows that the video adapter shares the same interface as the Pocket 386. I personally don't really like this, it makes all the parts for the Book 8088 v2 go to waste.

Edit: Also look like we can slot both 8086 & 8088.

kagamma wrote on 2024-05-14, 04:45:

A quick glance at the schematics shows that the video adapter shares the same interface as the Pocket 386. I personally don't really like this, it makes all the parts for the Book 8088 v2 go to waste.

Edit: Also look like we can slot both 8086 & 8088.

the technology is around and if enough of them are snatched up and bought for various reasons then it would make more sense that this would only encourage production and/or the creation of alternatives.
i've seen a lot of "retro"-esque machines meant to recapture the good ol' days and all of them have more or less fallen flat until, well, now with the book8088 and pocket386. these things are actually quite popular and its almost entirely because unlike laptops made in that era, the screens are actually legible and that's caught a lot of people's interest.
i wouldn't worry too much.

kagamma wrote on 2024-05-14, 04:45:

A quick glance at the schematics shows that the video adapter shares the same interface as the Pocket 386. I personally don't really like this, it makes all the parts for the Book 8088 v2 go to waste.

Edit: Also look like we can slot both 8086 & 8088.

Um, okay. I didn't know they're sort of rivals, but different configurations of same thing.

I mean, both the Book 8088 and the Pocket 386 have their common deficiencies, especially in the video era.

CGA would need a proper composite output for NTSC artifact graphics,
whereas the Pocket 386 / VGA graphics lack CRT emulation (or at least an optical lense/magnifier/foil for desired effect/blurriness).

Playing games on either handheld is a far cry from real thing, all in all.
But still cool though, sort of, I admit. Having DOS, Norton Commander or QB45 with you in your pocket is so cool! 😎👍

Speaking of the display itself, I think a random screen wit av input (ntsc/pal) would have been a better solution for the 320x200 games to begin with.
These screens are often 7" and sold as car parking assistant monitors, along with a little CMOS camera.

I mean, the whole digital/RGB aspect looks weird to me in this respect.
Personally, I think the blurrier the image, the more we do the former game artists justice.

Because back in the day, pixel-art never meant to produce pixelated images.
It wasn't an art-style yet. Except for Hercules graphics, maybe. ;)

Pixel-art was more of a craftsmanship about setting tiny pixels next to each others in specific way,
so that the illusion of a smooth image would be created.

Just think of the NES or Gameboy titles. Artists did wonders to make the GB sprites look smooth
(the 4 shades of green of the original dot matrix screen were often used to smoothen the drawings).

That being said, I'm glad that the Book 8088 doesn't come with a V20 by default.
It's a precious item, it would be sad to see it go to waste. Just kidding! It's the V30 that's precious! :D

PS: All in all I do think that gargoyle has worded things well.

Personally, I'd put it this way: As long as vintage items don't end up in the hands of scrappers or in a landfill, it's a good thing.
If parts are getting used up for either project here, they've been saved.

It's still possible to take the precious parts out of Book 8088 and Pocket 386 and re-use them.
So I'm rater relaxed here. ^^

Edit: Now for a more, um, productive comment: How about a PCMCIA/PC Card slot?
- I know these were never popular, but many 8088 sub notebooks (handhelds) had them.

So other period correct accessories could be used. If there's some space left, I mean,
and if enough mechanical PCMCIA slots are still available as NOS.

Sure, I know that Book 8088 already has a pin header with PC bus signals..
But on other hand, having an optional PCMCIA slot would allow using third-party peripherals.

CardBus for Pocket 386 would be 32-Bit, even, but also way too complicated to implement, I suppose.
Third-party peripherals fir CardBus weren't too popular, either, maybe.

Anyway, these are just sone thoughts. Feel free to just ignore them and go on.
I was thinking out loud here, essentially. No offense. 😅

Oh and last but not least, let's don't forget that the Book 8088 has its roots in the model making sceene.
So it was more about paying the IBM PC tribute, I guess, rather than being functional.

Edit: Edited. Formatting fixed.

Huh? Maybe my English is bad, but I mean 'waste' in the sense that they (the video adapters) cannot be exchanged between Book8088 / Pocket 8086.

It is worth nothing that the CGA solution they have in this thing (and I think the 386 laptop they have) is actually two ASICs duct-taped together based on the IBM CGA schematics from what Ive heard *and* is a discrete card sold separately on their store.

gargoyle wrote on 2024-05-14, 11:18:

the technology is around and if enough of them are snatched up and bought for various reasons then it would make more sense that […]
Show full quote

kagamma wrote on 2024-05-14, 04:45:

A quick glance at the schematics shows that the video adapter shares the same interface as the Pocket 386. I personally don't really like this, it makes all the parts for the Book 8088 v2 go to waste.

Edit: Also look like we can slot both 8086 & 8088.

the technology is around and if enough of them are snatched up and bought for various reasons then it would make more sense that this would only encourage production and/or the creation of alternatives.
i've seen a lot of "retro"-esque machines meant to recapture the good ol' days and all of them have more or less fallen flat until, well, now with the book8088 and pocket386. these things are actually quite popular and its almost entirely because unlike laptops made in that era, the screens are actually legible and that's caught a lot of people's interest.
i wouldn't worry too much.

Wait, is my OmniBook 600CT an outlier then? It's screen is perfectly legible, and is remarkably sharp even...

kagamma wrote on 2024-05-14, 04:45:

A quick glance at the schematics shows that the video adapter shares the same interface as the Pocket 386. I personally don't really like this, it makes all the parts for the Book 8088 v2 go to waste.

Edit: Also look like we can slot both 8086 & 8088.

In fact, Book8088 v2 is a parallel design of Book8088 v1, both derived from an earlier prototype. Before the CPLD-based CGA graphics card design was completed, earlier prototypes used VGA graphics cards.

Book 8088v2 was launched about four months after Book 8088v1. One of the reason for this change was a meeting between play3boy (owner of Metabreak Game Museum), Shan Zhongyu (designer of Book8088) and me in Guangzhou. We discussed its role in retro The gaming community, especially the challenge of sales in China, considers CGA graphics cards to be the main limiting factor, with even the earliest Chinese games, such as Richman, requiring HGC or EGA graphics cards to provide Chinese character display.

https://archive.org/details/richman_dos

In that meeting, I also mentioned that providing Tandy 1000 graphics simulation might make it more in line with the gaming atmosphere of the 1980s Western world, but the TGA FPGA implementation obviously makes it more expensive. In comparison, CL-GD5429, CT65535 , or VGA chips like TVGA9000 are cheaper.

Book 8088v2 was launched as a usability patch for v1, adding a keyboard and mouse interface and VGA graphic. The standard CPU was replaced with a faster V20, which made its configuration same of slightly higher than the Turbo XT in the late 1980s, making it more suitable for retro games.

The Pocket 8086 is actually the planned successor to the Book 8088 and can be considered the Book 8088v3. The factory stopped producing new Book8088s a few weeks ago, Pocket 8086 should be available on aliexpress very soon.

AngelaTheSephira wrote on 2024-05-25, 03:54:

It is worth nothing that the CGA solution they have in this thing (and I think the 386 laptop they have) is actually two ASICs duct-taped together based on the IBM CGA schematics from what Ive heard *and* is a discrete card sold separately on their store.

Only Book 8088v1 is equipped with CGA by default
Book 8088v2 provides CLGD5429 VGA as an option
Hand386 is CT65535 VGA
Pocket 386 is CLGD5429 VGA.
The CGA of Book 8088 is implemented using CPLD, which is a programmable chip similar to FPGA, but with lower complexity. Even if it is not perfect, this implementation is quite accurate.

pengan wrote on 2024-05-25, 18:58:

In that meeting, I also mentioned that providing Tandy 1000 graphics simulation might make it more in line with the gaming atmosphere of the 1980s Western world, but the TGA FPGA implementation obviously makes it more expensive. In comparison, CL-GD5429, CT65535 , or VGA chips like TVGA9000 are cheaper.

Being in the western world, I don't agree. Those with Tandy graphics had a Tandy computer. That is just a subset of the market. As many people say, if you are building a machine with vintage parts, you can't just build one machine to cover the DOS era, even just the 80s. I would say the most common display in the 80s DOS era was Mono. CGA color displays were around too though. Things like Tandy/EGA were less common. This is my experience in my part of the world. You are not going to make everyone happy trying to make a pluggable handheld that still has limitations. There are too many possibilities, and I suspect, limited supply of things.

I think building a hand held machine with a non-standard interface for changing out the graphics is not really the most versatile option. The best option when making new hardware is a design that is adaptable that everyone could possibly use, and that would be the more standard ISA bus slot motherboard. Because then, you have access to all the display options now, and more options as people put old standards back into production with the ISA interface. Now that would be contrary to the design choice of the book 8088, so I don't see this happening.

Now I can see some people interested in the book 8088 hand held because it is battery powered. But the battery capabilities has not been compelling to me due to the design limitations again, and I am already satisfied with existing options I have in DOS PCs.

pengan wrote on 2024-05-25, 19:18:

Only Book 8088v1 is equipped with CGA by default Book 8088v2 provides CLGD5429 VGA as an option Hand386 is CT65535 VGA Pocket 38 […]
Show full quote

AngelaTheSephira wrote on 2024-05-25, 03:54:

It is worth nothing that the CGA solution they have in this thing (and I think the 386 laptop they have) is actually two ASICs duct-taped together based on the IBM CGA schematics from what Ive heard *and* is a discrete card sold separately on their store.

Only Book 8088v1 is equipped with CGA by default
Book 8088v2 provides CLGD5429 VGA as an option
Hand386 is CT65535 VGA
Pocket 386 is CLGD5429 VGA.
The CGA of Book 8088 is implemented using CPLD, which is a programmable chip similar to FPGA, but with lower complexity. Even if it is not perfect, this implementation is quite accurate.

Yeah, thank you for clarifying. I didn't even know that there were multiple revisions of the hardware, I wonder why no one covered the VGA variant. And honestly, I'm not sure the CGA *is* a CPLD or an FPGA. CPLDs and FPGAs of that physical size are real expensive, and unless that's more than 70% of the cost of the device, I don't see it being that.

AngelaTheSephira wrote on 2024-05-25, 21:39:

pengan wrote on 2024-05-25, 19:18:

Only Book 8088v1 is equipped with CGA by default Book 8088v2 provides CLGD5429 VGA as an option Hand386 is CT65535 VGA Pocket 38 […]
Show full quote

AngelaTheSephira wrote on 2024-05-25, 03:54:

It is worth nothing that the CGA solution they have in this thing (and I think the 386 laptop they have) is actually two ASICs duct-taped together based on the IBM CGA schematics from what Ive heard *and* is a discrete card sold separately on their store.

Only Book 8088v1 is equipped with CGA by default
Book 8088v2 provides CLGD5429 VGA as an option
Hand386 is CT65535 VGA
Pocket 386 is CLGD5429 VGA.
The CGA of Book 8088 is implemented using CPLD, which is a programmable chip similar to FPGA, but with lower complexity. Even if it is not perfect, this implementation is quite accurate.

Yeah, thank you for clarifying. I didn't even know that there were multiple revisions of the hardware, I wonder why no one covered the VGA variant. And honestly, I'm not sure the CGA *is* a CPLD or an FPGA. CPLDs and FPGAs of that physical size are real expensive, and unless that's more than 70% of the cost of the device, I don't see it being that.

After the collapse of cryptocurrency mining, the price of second-hand FPGAs dropped by more than 10 times. This is a video on the Chinese social network Xiaohongshu. The batch of chips on the left cost 20,000 RMB two years ago, but only 2,000 today. A single Cyclone IV currently only costs 20 RMB ( 3.85USD)

AngelaTheSephira wrote on 2024-05-25, 03:54:

It is worth nothing that the CGA solution they have in this thing (and I think the 386 laptop they have) is actually two ASICs duct-taped together based on the IBM CGA schematics from what Ive heard *and* is a discrete card sold separately on their store.

------

Yeah, thank you for clarifying. I didn't even know that there were multiple revisions of the hardware, I wonder why no one covered the VGA variant. And honestly, I'm not sure the CGA *is* a CPLD or an FPGA. CPLDs and FPGAs of that physical size are real expensive, and unless that's more than 70% of the cost of the device, I don't see it being that.

The CGA used by the Book8088v1/v2/standalone CGA card are CPLD s+ a character rom + a 6845 / hd46505 (CRTC) + an octal latch + an SRAM . This is based on having not only the schematics, but seeing a v1 book and having 2 v2s that have both the CGA and VGA cards. No FPGA, no ASIC. http://8086cpu.com/lm6/79.html actually has the CPLD schematic files for the standalone card (which is the same as the onboard and the "addon" board for the v2.) as well as the full board schematic. The VGA variant was discussed some on the ongoing thread (and a couple others) on VCF.

the3dfxdude wrote on 2024-05-25, 20:36:

pengan wrote on 2024-05-25, 18:58:

In that meeting, I also mentioned that providing Tandy 1000 graphics simulation might make it more in line with the gaming atmosphere of the 1980s Western world, but the TGA FPGA implementation obviously makes it more expensive. In comparison, CL-GD5429, CT65535 , or VGA chips like TVGA9000 are cheaper.

I think building a hand held machine with a non-standard interface for changing out the graphics is not really the most versatile option. The best option when making new hardware is a design that is adaptable that everyone could possibly use, and that would be the more standard ISA bus slot motherboard. Because then, you have access to all the display options now, and more options as people put old standards back into production with the ISA interface. Now that would be contrary to the design choice of the book 8088, so I don't see this happening.

The ISA motherboard has indeed been considered: Re: Will the Book 8088 be a future classic?

However, this requires buyers to have background knowledge of ISA configuration before the PnP era(I/O Address, IRQ etc.), considering the actual situation of Chinese enthusiasts, especially the lack of necessary knowledge in the retro gaming community, this model has not been produced.

In addition, China and Japan have a strong preference for sub-notebooks. and there are several that impressed me deeply, including Toshiba Libretto, NEC Mobio NX, Fujitsu FMV-253L, ASUS eeePC, and GPD Win/Pocket. In addition, there are a large number of Handheld PCs running Windows CE: NEC MobileGear, Sharp Mobilon, and countless netbooks.

Due to the popularity of public transportation, especially railways, it is important to have a compact and lightweight design to save space in backpacks and briefcases, with compromise on compatibility and comfort keyboard.

In fact, Japanese sub-notebooks played a very important role in the Chinese laptop market in the 2000s. If you are interested in this history, you can use Google Translate to read my article.
The Enlightenment Teacher of China's Laptop Community: "Little Genius" and Its Companions (Part 1)
https://www.zhihu.com/column/p/27051876
The Enlightenment Teacher of China's Laptop Community: "Little Genius" and Its Companions (Part 2)
https://www.zhihu.com/column/p/27210994
The Enlightenment Teacher of China's Laptop Community: Handheld PC and Chinese community
https://www.zhihu.com/column/p/35018429

pengan wrote on 2024-05-26, 06:55:

However, this requires buyers to have background knowledge of ISA configuration before the PnP era(I/O Address, IRQ etc.), considering the actual situation of Chinese enthusiasts, especially the lack of necessary knowledge in the retro gaming community, this model has not been produced.

If you are driving vintage hardware, this can be solved using appropriate additions to the BIOS to help improve ease of use if this is a need in mind, over the basic XT compatible BIOS. Sometimes new drivers help if the need isn't common. So new BIOS software or drivers can help here.

But what are we saying here? Even in a portable machine, if you are running vintage DOS and hardware, you need to know how the hardware interfaces with the programs. This is what you are wanting to deliver to people, right? A DOS machine? Even when something like dosbox makes this thing a whole lot easier, there are still config profiles and understanding what this stuff means. So I don't know what model of computer running vintage physical hardware can be produced, and still be considered a DOS machine without things like this. If lack of knowledge on running such a system is a problem in producing a model, I don't see how you will fix it with vintage parts.

pengan wrote on 2024-05-26, 06:55:

In addition, China and Japan have a strong preference for sub-notebooks. and there are several that impressed me deeply, including Toshiba Libretto, NEC Mobio NX, Fujitsu FMV-253L, ASUS eeePC, and GPD Win/Pocket. In addition, there are a large number of Handheld PCs running Windows CE: NEC MobileGear, Sharp Mobilon, and countless netbooks.

Due to the popularity of public transportation, especially railways, it is important to have a compact and lightweight design to save space in backpacks and briefcases, with compromise on compatibility and comfort keyboard.

And a compromise on expansion and configurability making an ultra portable. Expansion was very expected in the DOS era, as these machines were open systems with only the basics to get running almost expected to be changed and improved. There were very few very portable machines (compared to market share) that lacked expansion, and they weren't used for games. Mostly nitch business concerns. So an ultra portable with vintage ICs for this purpose is an oddity in design, as this wasn't done then, even if there are enthusiasts that want it now (a small number).

I love my eeePC. I use it every day. The battery life is phenomenal and can still run modern stuff, and do simple emulation, like of DOS systems through dosbox. And there are various sizes for comfort and carrying, and plenty of expansion suited to a modern system. And it was cheap PC when new. I don't know why makers won't make these standard PCs all the time now. Chromebooks really are an abomination of this form factor. But maybe there are already too many of these cheap PCs still floating around and smart phones took over this role going forward. Who knows. There should still be a PC made in the ultra portable space.
Note: I am aware that hackers recently have improved real DOS support by adding new drivers that work with the eeePC. So there is this factor in this model but many other models also have functionality that people can use. This is competition as long as people keep these going around.

But these recent machines are modern designs by teams with alot of resources. If you can design a system to replace the vintage ICs with modern conveniences that can run DOS, that would be an interesting thing. But you have lots of competition, and there is already dosbox to handle alot of it. And people have done alot of work here already, but cost is a huge issue to finish the job better.

One possibility I keep coming to would be to buy up the mid PC era 90s - 2000s IC design files and put them back into production. But again... money. This could solve the problem. Well, actually, it was a solved problem. We still have alot of PCs that are DOS compatible with such capabilities, it's just they have inconveniences such as dead batteries, dead screens, or obsolete screen technology, and now people driving up the price of the remaining working systems. And there is no demand really for the companies to want to do anything with their design files.

So at the very least, it would be nice if one could just base a PC in available parts made today and not rely on used parts. Just like it was done originally. But there are gaps. I don't think we will get this accomplished. There is one person doing a 286 system motherboard using common parts for more longevity, which some talk about expanding to 386 and 486. But this I don't see an ultra portable coming out of this. Other people have made such systems over the years using remaining & used stock. It doesn't seem like there is much interest as very few having been making these boards, even though examples exist.

Shan fully owns this product, my influence is limited.

I have complete experience setting up ISA PCs and many other older computers, but people like me are only a small part of the overall Book8088/Pocket 386 audience spectrum.

In China in the 1990s, manufacturers such as Lenovo (was "Legend" then) earned a reputation for their meticulous after-sales service. Their technicians would come to customers to adjust jumpers or reinstall systems at no extra charge. Therefore, many people have nostalgic feelings for DOS games but have no hardware-related knowledge. From a sales perspective, these people are customers that B8088/P386 can cover that NuXT or ISA SBC cannot.

B8088/P386 are still open systems. The ISA expansion board of Book8088 is actually a standard 8-bit ISA backplane, standard ISA SBC can work with it: https://x.com/pengan/status/1780839164369388018
Standard ISA hardware can also work with B8088/P386, The connecting cable between Book8088 and the expansion board is PC-104 pinout, but different socket sizes.

Even in the DOS era (early 1990s), the Asian market's enthusiasm for ultra-portable devices was very high. Tidalwave produced a large number of DOS Palmtop PCs for different brands in Taiwan, and most models of the NEC 98NOTE remained in the A4 size. Monochrome LCD monitors have limited their performance in gaming, but there has always been a market for PC gaming on portable devices.

This energy has accumulated for more than 20 years, and first burst out from GPD Win, and B8088/P386 is a combination of this concept and retro computing.

I know this firsthand because I was also a digital dictionary gamer when I was a middle school student. here is part of that story: Chinese Dreams of Electric Words: https://chaoyangtrap.house/s02-episode-9-chin … electric-words/

pengan wrote on 2024-05-27, 20:19:

B8088/P386 are still open systems. The ISA expansion board of Book8088 is actually a standard 8-bit ISA backplane, standard ISA SBC can work with it: https://x.com/pengan/status/1780839164369388018
Standard ISA hardware can also work with B8088/P386, The connecting cable between Book8088 and the expansion board is PC-104 pinout, but different socket sizes.

Do you know if there is any intention to release a 16-bit ISA backplane that would work with the Pocket 386? It seems like something that would be useful, especially if it could take the full range of voltages required for different expansion cards. Something like the ATX4VC could supply the voltages. Just a thought.

pengan wrote on 2024-05-27, 20:19:

I know this firsthand because I was also a digital dictionary gamer when I was a middle school student. here is part of that story: Chinese Dreams of Electric Words: https://chaoyangtrap.house/s02-episode-9-chin … electric-words/

That is very interesting. Strangely, for being in Canada, I have a device of that type put away somewhere. I bought it by accident/mistake, because it was sandwiched between other things in a sealed bag of mixed items in a thrift store here, and I thought it might be a WinCE or Netbook device. I could do very little with it, but it seemed like it should do more. It looked most like the NC3000 on that page. I have forgotten where exactly it is at the present time.

bfarmilo wrote on 2024-05-28, 02:42:

pengan wrote on 2024-05-27, 20:19:

B8088/P386 are still open systems. The ISA expansion board of Book8088 is actually a standard 8-bit ISA backplane, standard ISA SBC can work with it: https://x.com/pengan/status/1780839164369388018
Standard ISA hardware can also work with B8088/P386, The connecting cable between Book8088 and the expansion board is PC-104 pinout, but different socket sizes.

Do you know if there is any intention to release a 16-bit ISA backplane that would work with the Pocket 386? It seems like something that would be useful, especially if it could take the full range of voltages required for different expansion cards. Something like the ATX4VC could supply the voltages. Just a thought.

As a Chinese immigrant living in Canada, I deeply understand the unevenness of the world. It is ten times more difficult to buy a Macintosh SE or Atari ST in China than in Canada. On the contrary, products like ATX4VC are almost meaningless in China, costing 15 yuan (2.07 USD) you can buy a reliable switching power supply, the only thing required is to pick the right voltage.

Buy a 16-bit ISA backplane that fully complies with industry standards in China only costs about 60 yuan with free shipping. The cost of assembling an SBC-based 386/486 desktop computer will not exceed half the price of the Pocket 386. This explains from another perspective why he chose to develop laptops instead of desktops

I expect Shan will hardly believe that it's commercially worthwhile to provide a 16-bit ISA backplane for the Pocket 386.

BitWrangler wrote on 2024-05-28, 04:02:

pengan wrote on 2024-05-27, 20:19:

I know this firsthand because I was also a digital dictionary gamer when I was a middle school student. here is part of that story: Chinese Dreams of Electric Words: https://chaoyangtrap.house/s02-episode-9-chin … electric-words/

That is very interesting. Strangely, for being in Canada, I have a device of that type put away somewhere. I bought it by accident/mistake, because it was sandwiched between other things in a sealed bag of mixed items in a thrift store here, and I thought it might be a WinCE or Netbook device. I could do very little with it, but it seemed like it should do more. It looked most like the NC3000 on that page. I have forgotten where exactly it is at the present time.

NC3000 is an embedded system based on 6502, and the feeling of programming it is similar to those hackable graphing calculators.
For Windows CE models, they are in a later time period than NC3000, in the late 2000s. I saw the Nurian Z1 from Korea at that time, and my first impression was a bit like a jailbroken GPS navigator.
Sharp's Brain series has the most complete wiki documentation and can be used as an entry point to understand this type of product.
https://brain.fandom.com/ja/wiki/Brain_Wiki

pengan wrote on 2024-05-27, 20:19:

[..] I know this firsthand because I was also a digital dictionary gamer when I was a middle school student. here is part of that story: Chinese Dreams of Electric Words: https://chaoyangtrap.house/s02-episode-9-chin … electric-words/

Thanks, pengan. This was very informative and interesting to read! 😃👍

Reminds me a bit of the 90s, when I was into collecting various calculators and elecronic organizers (aka electronic databases).

It would have been cool if the models sold in my country had featured a translator function, too.

Our higher-end organizers mostly had irDA and a PC-Link functionality, at best (via 3-wire serial link).
For transferring notes and shedules and phone book, but not software.

The more intelligent models of the time (late 90s/early 00s) were PDAs like Franklin Rex (credit card size),
Siemens IC35, Palm Pilot, Casio Pocket Viewer, Olivetti Da Vinci. And the Win CE handhelds, of course.

There were exceptions, of course. Dedicated translators existed, too, but they were bulky.

Also, Sharp had offered those foldable databases with replaceable modules since the 80s or so. Like the IQ-7000.

These weren't cheap consumer products, though.
Not like the usual electronic organizers so common in the 90s.