AppleSauce wrote on 2024-04-27, 17:26:

Karmeck wrote on 2024-04-27, 17:17:

Hi. A regular normie here. […]
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nukeykt wrote on 2024-04-27, 15:13:

I'm not fond of idea of running Nuked SC-55 on Pi either. Mostly because it will open pandora box and might cause unscrupulous people starting selling Pi-based hardware with emulated SC-55 using my code, despite it being prohibited by non-comercial license.

Hi. A regular normie here.

First thank you for doing all this. Sharing your knowledge and creativity with the world.

Long had I searched for a soundfont to properly represent the sc-55. But, being an perfectionist, I was never truly satisfied. Which was also the reason I gave up on crt tvs, freaking convergence.

Then this came along, praised repeatedly as the true king of emulating the sound produced by the sc-55.

Once again, thank you. I can now feel inner peace.

I think I have made it quite clear in this very thread and on github, my total lack of knowledge regarding compiling and negative experience with github as a site.

I would really love for Nuked-SC55 to be on a Pi. Clearly it can be done with what is already available. But I don't know how. Maybe 000MDK on github will get thro to me one day. But I'd say it's unlikely. I'm just copying things man, I don't know what I'm doing.

I get that I don't have any right to have anything the way I like it, just because. And I get that if I want somthing done I better learn to code and do it my self. That's not really helpful to me tho.

That's why I would do it. I would pay to have someone provide me with a Pi, with an SD card, running Nuked-SC55. Because right now there is no other way for me ....however, It would probably, at that point tho, be a Pi compatible version easily available, at which point, buying a preloaded SD card would be unnecessary.

That's how you stop it, availability, no one (well some) will buy software that is easily available and free.

I know it's not your job to do it.

But alas, I don't have a pi, and it looks increasingly likely that I'm buying a real sc-55 mk1, next week.

In the end I rather have a Pi on my desk that is just as good, and smaller.

For a third time, thank you.

Nö

There are release builds so you don't technically need to compile anything unless you want the very latest updated version.

Your telling me I can use those on a Pi?

Karmeck wrote on 2024-04-27, 17:29:

AppleSauce wrote on 2024-04-27, 17:26:

Karmeck wrote on 2024-04-27, 17:17:

Hi. A regular normie here. […]
Show full quote

Hi. A regular normie here.

First thank you for doing all this. Sharing your knowledge and creativity with the world.

Long had I searched for a soundfont to properly represent the sc-55. But, being an perfectionist, I was never truly satisfied. Which was also the reason I gave up on crt tvs, freaking convergence.

Then this came along, praised repeatedly as the true king of emulating the sound produced by the sc-55.

Once again, thank you. I can now feel inner peace.

I think I have made it quite clear in this very thread and on github, my total lack of knowledge regarding compiling and negative experience with github as a site.

I would really love for Nuked-SC55 to be on a Pi. Clearly it can be done with what is already available. But I don't know how. Maybe 000MDK on github will get thro to me one day. But I'd say it's unlikely. I'm just copying things man, I don't know what I'm doing.

I get that I don't have any right to have anything the way I like it, just because. And I get that if I want somthing done I better learn to code and do it my self. That's not really helpful to me tho.

That's why I would do it. I would pay to have someone provide me with a Pi, with an SD card, running Nuked-SC55. Because right now there is no other way for me ....however, It would probably, at that point tho, be a Pi compatible version easily available, at which point, buying a preloaded SD card would be unnecessary.

That's how you stop it, availability, no one (well some) will buy software that is easily available and free.

I know it's not your job to do it.

But alas, I don't have a pi, and it looks increasingly likely that I'm buying a real sc-55 mk1, next week.

In the end I rather have a Pi on my desk that is just as good, and smaller.

For a third time, thank you.

Nö

There are release builds so you don't technically need to compile anything unless you want the very latest updated version.

Your telling me I can use those on a Pi?

I'm not sure about the Pi version , I've never used one.

the pi cmake/makes like every other debian linux box. It's just more that it's the popular SBC with a lot of clout-chasing on figuring out new things to do with it and then that'll have a butterfly effect - the problem with Pis being resold with mass copyrighted materials included is real.

The SC-55 is professional equipment that Roland still profits from in a way, and I think it's fine if that stuck to a non-commercial license with that in mind. I have no obligation for it to be pasted into other differently licensed emulators, it wasn't an internal part and it's not an essential part required for function.

leileilol wrote on 2024-04-27, 17:52:

the pi cmake/makes like every other debian linux box. It's just more that it's the popular SBC with a lot of clout-chasing on figuring out new things to do with it and then that'll have a butterfly effect - the problem with Pis being resold with mass copyrighted materials included is real.

The SC-55 is professional equipment that Roland still profits from in a way, and I think it's fine if that stuck to a non-commercial license with that in mind. I have no obligation for it to be pasted into other differently licensed emulators, it wasn't an internal part and it's not an essential part required for function.

! Above post was edited. Originally author questioned the amount of request for binarys from pi users !

You can own and use a Pi not knowing what Linux is. You get good at applying .img files to SD cards tho.

You can use custom roms on your phone, not knowing what a kernel or governor does or even are. But the description claims better battery life, so that's hard to argue against.

You can buy mt32-pi not knowing how to update or what ssh is or what it's used for. Then give the developer a hard time on discord to the pint that he bans you from the channel.

The request, no, wish for pi compatible binarys is not hard to understand, for those that don't.

To make my concerns clean:
Seems it is clear that there's demand for cheap phyiscal SC-55 replacement, given that how many times this topic was already brought up on various forums and discord servers, despite that project was released only month ago...
Situtation with MT-32 is also suggests so: there's plethora of MUNT/mt32-pi-derived MT-32 compatible synths on the market, which suggest that lots of people will rather spend money on ready-to-go solution rather than building synth completely themselves using off the shelf components. Wonder how many of these sellers share revenue with actual MUNT developers? I'd guess very little if any

There are many enthusiasts at home who delight in building such projects for themselves, based upon the good work of developers like nukeykt, and d0pefish, and the MUNT developers - e.g. for mt32-pi.
The additional standardisation to Pi format saves us a lot of work duplication, by allowing us all to work to a common build.

These are some of my favourite home projects. Not only to build, and to use, though those aspects are great. But also because I had a real SC-55MkII for some years, and when I hear about a project like Nuked-SC55, my first thought is "Yes! Now I, and all of my community of niche enthusiasts, can have that SC-55MkII experience forever, separate from the concerns of ageing original hardware, expensive prices, rarity, location, .....". It is a means of shared preservation, and I love to see it configured in ways that allow as many of us as possible to efficiently participate.

I really hope we can do this, and that concerns about commercial exploitation can be addressed. Personally, I believe that the main part of the community will respect the license. People who deliberately operate beyond the license would do as they wish, regardless of what we say here. But they would not be popular.

nukeykt wrote on 2024-04-28, 02:31:

To make my concerns clean:
Seems it is clear that there's demand for cheap phyiscal SC-55 replacement, given that how many times this topic was already brought up on various forums and discord servers, despite that project was released only month ago...
Situtation with MT-32 is also suggests so: there's plethora of MUNT/mt32-pi-derived MT-32 compatible synths on the market, which suggest that lots of people will rather spend money on ready-to-go solution rather than building synth completely themselves using off the shelf components. Wonder how many of these sellers share revenue with actual MUNT developers? I'd guess very little if any

I can only speak for myself, but I'm sure there are others who are in my position. I bought the mt-32-pi because of the way it seamlessly integrates with the AO486 core with my MiSTer setup through the USER I/O port. The MiSTer's ARM chip isn't powerful enough to run MUNT, so external processing is necessary. One small cable from the USER I/O port to the mt-32-pi is all that is needed to digitally mix MT-32 midi audio with sound effects. Otherwise, I'd need 2 analog cables and a ethernet/wi-fi connection (using UDPMIDI) to a windows PC to use Munt and mix the audio. Ditto with SCVA and Nuked SC-55.

nukeykt wrote on 2024-04-28, 02:31:

To make my concerns clean:
Seems it is clear that there's demand for cheap phyiscal SC-55 replacement, given that how many times this topic was already brought up on various forums and discord servers, despite that project was released only month ago...
Situtation with MT-32 is also suggests so: there's plethora of MUNT/mt32-pi-derived MT-32 compatible synths on the market, which suggest that lots of people will rather spend money on ready-to-go solution rather than building synth completely themselves using off the shelf components. Wonder how many of these sellers share revenue with actual MUNT developers? I'd guess very little if any

What do you want?

If I buy a real mt32 or a mt32-pi device, in both of those cases munt development gets no money. One of thees is cheaper, fit on the side of my mister and is many more times available.

You want d0pefish to make no money? Or any other who sell mt32-pi devices?

Once again, if the only alternative is buying a real mt32, munt developer would still get no money.

I let @d0pefish fend for them self here, having bought an mt32-pi, I approve of thire work.

If you ask the community to not include your code in thire products (which you have), they won't, those that do anyway will be banned from mention and fade away.

Karmeck wrote on 2024-04-28, 17:15:

If you ask the community to not include your code in thire products (which you have), they won't, those that do anyway will be banned from mention and fade away.

I'm afraid it's infinitely worse than that.

If the concern is around cheap Chinese devices being made and sold commercially (and that's how I took at least some of the author's commentary), no license will stop that, as China itself does not recognize international copyright or trademark whatsoever.

nukeykt,

Do you want this discussion in this thread? I for one don't want to read it when I visit this thread and I doubt I'm the only one.

nukeykt wrote on 2024-03-15, 08:40:

orcish75 wrote on 2024-03-15, 07:57:

Incredible stuff!! Well done!

I know the objective is to emulate the device as close to 100% as possible, but can you add in a selectable feature to increase the polyphony from the default 28 voices? This would make it better than the original as music that requires more than 28 voice polyphony will play properly. A lot of the Warcraft 2 tracks for instance drop notes when played on a real SC-55.

not possible with approach I use I guess, all code inside firmware assumes 28 voices and pcm chip has hard limit of 28 voices (curiosly, on original sc-55 pcm chip DOES support 28 voices, it is just firmware is compiled to work with 24). SC-55 firmware does fair amount of the processing actually (all midi->voice/partial conversion, envelope/volume/filter control, LFOs/frequency control, etc, etc), pcm chip on other hand plays samples from ROM, does envelope interpolation and applies some effects

Thanks nukeykt, for your hard work, allowing to preserve all of these Roland Sound Canvas hardwares/synths.


Also, how about adding a command line argument/option, to set the Voice Reserve number of the emulated SC-55mkII, to 2 voices for the channels 1-12, and to 1 voice for the channels 13-16 ?

I've been using this Voice Reserve configuration/solution for decades, on my real Roland Sound Canvas SC-55mkII, and I wasn't noticing any cut notes anymore, with the games I was playing the most, being the Doom engine games, the Build engine games, the Descent games, and other Apogee games.


I remember the first time I had encountered a cut note problem : it was with the Heretic game, when in the E1M4 level, where the "Strings" instrument (number 49) played in the channel 11 was getting cut off, and it was unbearable for me.

However, before even buying my SC-55mkII, I had read the entire manual of the SC-55, SC-55mkII, SC-88 and SC-88Pro (PDF files from the official Roland web site), so I was aware of the "Voice Reserve" feature (called "Partial Reserve" for the original SC-55), which is clearly explained in the manuals.

And so, while in this E1M4 level in Heretic, and using the front panel buttons from my SC-55mkII, simply increasing the Voice Reserve for the channel 11, from 0 to 1 single voice, was enough to fix this problem, and prevent the notes from being cut anymore.


Also, since I had encountered other games having notes being cut off, like Descent for example, this had made me take the decision to permanently set and use the custom Voice Reserve configuration, of 2 voices for the channels 1-12, and 1 voice for the channels 13-16.

It was also at this moment then, that I was glad, after having hesitated between buying either the original SC-55 or the SC-55mkII, of having finally taken the decision of rather buying the SC-55mkII, because setting a custom Voice Reserve configuration on the original SC-55, so that there's at least 1 voice allocated per channel, would require reducing the Voice Reserve number, from 2 voices to only 1 voice, from 2 channels among the channels 1-10, since it has 4 less polyphony voices, compared to the SC-55mkII.


So, what could be done to implement a command line option, to set the Voice Reserve number of the emulated SC-55mkII, to 2 voices for the channels 1-12, and to 1 voice for the channels 13-16, and also considering that the Voice Reserve configuration is set back to the default, if playing a game or MIDI music/file sending either a "GS Reset" or "GM System On" SysEx message, would consist of "maintaining" the state of the customised Voice Reserve number values/variables, stored into the emulated SC-55mkII's RAM ?

Or an alternate way to implement this command line option, could be to send, to the emulated SC-55mkII, a SysEx message to set the Voice Reserve number, to 2 voices for the channels 1-12, and to 1 voice for the channels 13-16, and then "scaning" all of the SysEx messages sent to your "Nuked SC-55" software : if any of these SysEx messages is identified either as a "GS Reset" or "GM System On" SysEx message, then just after having forwarded it to the emulated SC-55mkII, you could re-send the SysEx message to re-set the Voice Reserve number, to 2 voices for the channels 1-12, and to 1 voice for the channels 13-16 (after a delay of at least 50ms, to give enough time to the "GS Reset" or "GM System On" SysEx messages to be executed, as recommended by Roland) ?


Unfortunately, it seems that even with this custom Voice Reserve configuration, there could still be notes being cut off, when the maximum polyphony is exceeded, on the channels 13-16, when an instrument made of 2 partials/voices, is being used on these 4 channels.

This can be tested and demonstrated with the Heretic example above : while in this E1M4 level in Heretic, if increasing the Voice Reserve for the channel 11, from 0 to 1 single voice, is enough to prevent the "Strings" instrument (number 49) from being cut off, then changing the instrument for this channel 11, to another instrument made of 2 partials/voices, like the "Syn. Strings2" instrument (number 52) for example, will result in the notes on this channel to be cut off, once again, unless the Voice Reserve for this channel is increased to 2 voices.

However, using this custom Voice Reserve configuration is still much better than the default one, and avoids notes being cut off with most games, so adding this command line option would still be useful and important.


Finally, another similar command line option could be added, being useful when using 2 instances of "Nuked SC-55", or if someday, a feature allowing to run "Nuked SC-55" with 2 emulated SC-55(mkII) synths, in the same window (in a top-to-bottom layout for example), and automatically allocating the odd channels to one emulated SC-55(mkII) synth, and the even channels to the other emulated SC-55(mkII) synth.

In these cases, the command line option would set the Voice Reserve number to 3 voices, to only the odd channels for the emulated SC-55(mkII) synth to which only the odd channels are allocated, and also set the Voice Reserve number to 3 voices, to only the even channels for the emulated SC-55(mkII) synth to which only the even channels are allocated.


Actually, if using 2 instances of "Nuked SC-55", then 2 different command line options would be required : one to set the Voice Reserve number to 3 voices, to only the odd channels for the "Nuked SC-55" instance meant for the odd channels only, and another one to set the Voice Reserve number to 3 voices, to only the even channels for the "Nuked SC-55" instance meant for the even channels only.

Also, I've intentionally suggested to set the Voice Reserve number to 3 voices, for a total of 24 voices per emulated SC-55(mkII) synth, so that these command line options could work with both the original SC-55 and the SC-55mkII too, unless you don't mind adding yet another command line option, to set the Voice Reserve number to 4 voices, for 4 of the odd channels and for 4 of the even channels, to make full use of the SC-55mkII's additional 4 polyphony voices ?

Xenon 2 wrote on 2024-04-29, 03:46:

Finally, another similar command line option could be added, being useful when using 2 instances of "Nuked SC-55", or if someday, a feature allowing to run "Nuked SC-55" with 2 emulated SC-55(mkII) synths, in the same window (in a top-to-bottom layout for example), and automatically allocating the odd channels to one emulated SC-55(mkII) synth, and the even channels to the other emulated SC-55(mkII) synth.

You can do this with Falcosoft's amazing piece of software, the Falcosoft Soundfont Midi Player.

Falcosoft Soundfont Midi Player + Munt VSTi + BassMidi VSTi

I'm assuming you're already using some form of virtual midi port, such as Loopmidi. Create two virtual midi ports, and run two instances of Nuked-SC55 using the -p: switch, -p:0 and -p:1 (assuming you only have two virtual midi ports running, if you have more or real midi ports running, check their assigned port numbers)

Open FSMP (Falcosoft Soundfont Midi Player) and click settings (gear icon) and select "Use Bass (Soundfonts/VSTi)" on the Midi Out options. click OK and then click Main menu (three horizontal bars icon), go to Bass VSTi Plugins, Click VST Instrument, click "File" on the new window that opens, browse to "FSMP install directory"\MidiPlayer6\VST\WinMM_MultiPortVsti\ and then select WinMM_MultiPortVsti.dll. Click the "Play" button on the VST Instrument window.

Another window will pop up, under "Port A" select your first virtual midi port, under channels, select "Even Only". Under "Port B" select your second virtual midi port and under channels, select "Odd Only"

Now you'll have two Nuked-SC55 instances running, effectively giving you 56 note polyphony. No more dropped notes or cut off bell in Warcraft 2. Even Everquest sounds good, with only a few notes dropped, whereas it was unlistenable before with only 28 note polyphony.

I have successfully run the JV-880.

I noticed that the third track on the demo, The Race, had some pops.

Comparing the volume when playing demo in SC-55mkII mode, I feel that the volume of JV-880 seems to be louder.

I wonder if the louder volume causes overflow?

YouTube Nuked SC-55 in JV-880 mode here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pqse6nAJgI

real device recording here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKBxOkCLkZw

there are a lot of unknown writes in that video of yours.

the fliter is definitely off.

that said, there seem to be some pops in the real tune too.

orcish75 wrote on 2024-03-15, 07:57:

I know the objective is to emulate the device as close to 100% as possible, but can you add in a selectable feature to increase the polyphony from the default 28 voices? This would make it better than the original as music that requires more than 28 voice polyphony will play properly. A lot of the Warcraft 2 tracks for instance drop notes when played on a real SC-55.

nukeykt wrote on 2024-03-15, 08:40:

not possible with approach I use I guess, all code inside firmware assumes 28 voices and pcm chip has hard limit of 28 voices (curiosly, on original sc-55 pcm chip DOES support 28 voices, it is just firmware is compiled to work with 24). SC-55 firmware does fair amount of the processing actually (all midi->voice/partial conversion, envelope/volume/filter control, LFOs/frequency control, etc, etc), pcm chip on other hand plays samples from ROM, does envelope interpolation and applies some effects

solved:
https://github.com/nukeykt/Nuked-SC55/issues/29

Why did early versions of SC-55 have "capital tone fallback" and later ones like the mk2 not? Maybe because early versions of the SC-55 didn't have a working GM mode, while the later revisions did and so that feature was useless?

robertmo3 wrote on 2024-04-30, 17:12:

solved:
https://github.com/nukeykt/Nuked-SC55/issues/29

Awesome!! Thanks for the feature!

Kappa971 wrote on 2024-05-01, 23:03:

Why did early versions of SC-55 have "capital tone fallback" and later ones like the mk2 not?

Yamaha held a patent covering tone fallback behavior and threatened Roland with litigation. Roland capitulated and removed the feature from successive models.

Another advantage of Nuked SC55 over SCVA is portability. I don’t really feel like spinning up a copy of Falcosoft MIDI Player in wine to host a virtual midi port on Linux. Then again, I guess it’s not much more or less overhead than running an instance of the emulator, except I have to use a drm free plugin for it to work under wine. Or is everyone running a full copy of Roland Cloud under wine as well?

Cloudschatze wrote on 2024-05-02, 01:05:

Yamaha held a patent covering tone fallback behavior and threatened Roland with litigation. Roland capitulated and removed the feature from successive models.

Oh, interesting...